[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Jen.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: I'm Sybil.
[00:00:03] Speaker C: And I'm Billy Ray.
[00:00:04] Speaker A: And you're listening to every rom com, the podcast where we have fun taking romantic comedies seriously.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: This week on every rom com we're opening our sports rom com series with a tennis love triangle that charmed critics but somehow didn't score at the Oscars.
[00:00:19] Speaker C: We'll discuss the film's exploration of sexual fluidity and sexual tension and how that tension plays out on and off the court.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: And we'll talk about our favorite sports movies and how this film fits into and breaks out of the genre as we take on the 2024 Luca Guadagnino film. Challeng Foreign.
Really glad to be back on every rom com with you, Sybil. It has been a minute and I'm really glad to start our sports rom com series.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: I'm so excited about this series. Sports movies are like my jam. I love them so much. I hate sports. Love sports movies.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: But I remember in our Can't Hardly Wait episode, you revealed that you were like the assistant something or like on all these different sports teams in high schools.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: So 100% true. Do not understand how any of this, any of those work. But I did. I was statistician.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Okay. That's what it was. Okay. You were a statistician. So I was hoping that you would have, like, some superior sports knowledge that you would be able to bring to our episodes. But that's not the case, it seems. No, no.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: I'm so sorry. I know nothing about what's going on ever. And yet I still love sports movies.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Well, apparently Luca Guadagnino told interviewers that he still doesn't know anything about tennis after making Challengers. So fortunately, I also feel no guilt about knowing nothing about tennis too. So.
[00:02:01] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: But we'll find out. Maybe our guest knows something about tennis. We will find out in a minute. Our guest today is a returning guest, Billy Ray Bruton. He is a filmmaker and film programmer based in Los Angeles. He's the creative director of Make Believe, a frequent heel on the Screen Drafts podcast, and the producer of the new documentary Coroner to the Stars, currently on the film festival circuit. The about the life and career of Dr. Thomas Noguchi, the former LA County Coroner slash medical examiner. And Billy Ray is also in every rom com podcast fame. I personally think he was on our funniest episode of all time, in no small part to his contributions, our dashing in December episode where we dealt with a gay Christmas rom com in the Hallmark style. And yeah, I listened to that again. Recently Billy Ray. And it was. I was still dying laughing, even though I was on the episode.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: So.
[00:02:57] Speaker C: So that that film got me back into watching Christmas romcoms. So I. I can credit it for really increasing the number of hours I spend in Hallmark land every year.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Well, I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but.
[00:03:15] Speaker C: Hey, jury's still out.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
And so it looks like, Billy Ray, you are up to so many different things since that episode, though. So let's see, there's the move to Los Angeles. So can you tell me a little bit about make believe?
[00:03:29] Speaker C: Yeah, that's just sort of my creative umbrella where I do a lot of different things. It was a now defunct film festival for a while, but it's also sort of my production company that I use, you know, when I'm producing projects for other people. Just like Corner to the Stars. And I will also need to give you credit that you pronounced his title correctly. It is coroner slash medical examiner. That's exactly how you say it. And you did that correctly.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: I have. I have a quick question. So I just. I'm a huge theater buff as well, and I just came back from New York seeing Dead Outlaw. And do you know that Dr. Thomas Noguchi is in that?
[00:04:05] Speaker C: I am very aware of that. We were.
We and the Dead Outlaw team, who we now know and are friends with, were both part of a New York Times article that dropped about a month ago. And Ben, the director of the film, actually just got back from New York recently. He went and saw the film and, you know, hung out with the cast and brought them some memorabilia from the film. And, yeah, Dr. Noguchi's sort of having a. A bit of a. A renaissance at the moment between this film Dead Outlaw, and then there's a new biography out about him as well that just dropped recently. So he's getting a little bit of his moment at 98 years young.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: And how did you get involved in the project, Billy Ray?
[00:04:47] Speaker C: Oh, gosh, I got involved through my best friend Ben, who is the director of the film. Ben has been working on this project for over a decade now. Honestly, I mean, I had barely known Ben when he got this project kind of fell into his lap. And I kind of started out helping in all these kind of like, random ways. You know, maybe I would help find a location or I would help write a grant. And then at some point, I got involved as an investor. And then about a year, year and a half ago is when I came on board as a producer to sort of it kind of stalled a little bit, so I kind of came in to get it across the finish line.
[00:05:23] Speaker A: Nice. Well, I'm. I'm. I like this. You've done so much. Like, if you go back and listen to our last episode with Billy Ray, like, his resume at that time, like, floored us, and now you're just adding more titles and more projects to your, I don't know, repertoire. I guess, like, yeah, I've done a.
[00:05:39] Speaker C: Lot and I've done 5% of it. Well.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: I'm sure that's. I'm sure that's false Goddess.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: That's not LA enough. You have to be like, I do it all fantastically. And when it's not done fantastic, possibly it was somebody else's fault.
[00:05:51] Speaker C: I wish I could have an ego like that. I am, I am. I am so not your typical Angelino in that respect.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: In addition to this project, are there. Is there anything else that you're looking to produce on the horizon or is like, producing one thing at a time kind of enough for you right now?
[00:06:07] Speaker C: Well, I wish it was enough for me, frankly. It'd be a lot easier on my anxiety. But, no, I. You know, I've got a few irons in the fire right now. I'm producing a couple projects for some. Some other folks and. And then I'm. I'm working on my feature, which I'm going to be shooting at the end of this year, my second feature.
So. Yeah. And then, you know, I've got some theater projects in the works again. I always kind of alternate back and forth, and so, yeah, I got way too much on the docket and not enough time to do it all in. But I'm. I'm trying to squeeze in as much as I can and.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: What. Just out of curiosity, what's the genre of your next feature?
[00:06:42] Speaker C: Why, it's horror, of course.
But I will say there might be a hint. A hint? A. A sous show of a rom com buried in there.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, I'm looking forward to finding out about it either way when it comes out.
So.
So we're gonna. We're talking about sports movies. We're heading off our sports movie series, and I wanted to find out what are your some of everybody's favorite sports movies? Sports rom coms or just sports movies in general?
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Excellent question.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:18] Speaker C: So I will. I will just throw in there like, I am kind of a sports person.
I did play tennis when I was younger. I've. I've watched tennis avidly my entire life. It's my. It's my favorite sport.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Thank goodness. Okay, we've got one.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: Yes, we have one. But I'm also, you know, I'm also a baseball fan. I watch a lot of basketball. I can't be from Alabama and not love Alabama football. Roll Tide. So, like, I kind of. I kind of COVID the bases in terms of sports. In terms of sports movies.
I. You know, it seems like for a while there, the only podcasts I were. I was doing were, like, podcasts that had to do with baseball movies.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: Huh.
[00:07:54] Speaker C: That's probably because baseball films are my favorite, you know, types of sports movies. You know, I adore Field of Dreams and the Natural and A League of Their Own. But, you know, I also, you know, I love Hoosiers. I love, like, you know, I'm just a sucker for a really good sports movie. I think it has to be really well done, and I'm pretty judgmental when it comes to them. And that's why, you know, we'll get into it. But I think that's why Challenger slaps so hard for me. But I would say mostly they tend to be baseball movies. And if I'm saying what my favorite one is, I don't know how I can't say Field of Dreams, I think that's a perfect movie.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: That is actually my favorite sports movie, too. Like, that was my big answer. So it's going to be completely anticlimactic now. I mean, I like other sports movies as well, but Field of Dreams has a certain special something. I actually made my family go visit the Field of Dreams because we live in Wisconsin. So our trip to, you know, Galena, Illinois, we made a detour, and we. We stood in the Field of Dreams, and I bought a vial of dirt from the Field of Dreams.
[00:08:54] Speaker C: Oh, wow.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: I kept that for an unreasonably long time.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: I love that. I love that. I, you know, Field of Dreams, to me, I don't. It's that magical realism part of it. It's just. It feels like a frank crapper film.
My favorite thing about that movie is that these magical things happen and people just accept it. They don't question it. That doesn't become a part of the plot. It's just like, oh, there's this magical thing happening. Okay, let's get to the bottom of it. I love that.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
How about you, Sybil? You said this is like a genre you love. So what do you got?
[00:09:25] Speaker B: This is a genre. This is a genre that I absolutely adore, and I've seen far too many movies in it, and my favorite is Miracle. And it's one that not a lot of people have seen at Miracle, the hockey film.
[00:09:37] Speaker C: Great movie.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, yeah, I've heard of that.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's one of my favorite. I probably watch it every, I don't know, six to eight months. I just think it's incredibly well done. I like that every character has an arc, even though there's a fairly, like, large cast of people and it's based on a true story. Who knows how true it is? But I appreciate the fact that there. I didn't feel like there was any, like, added drama, because the drama itself was just. Was enough. They didn't have to add anything. And there's. It's not one of the sports movies that's, like, trying to, like, solve racism or something with sports, which are ones that I absolutely hate.
[00:10:12] Speaker C: Yeah, he. He actually directed.
Gavin o' Connor has directed two of my favorite sports movies, because Miracle, I would also say, is up there high for me. And Also Warrior, his 2011 film with Tom Hardy, and, like, just a great movie. And, I mean, look, I'm a sucker for the accountant films, too. And the Way Back, which he did with Ben Affleck, he knows his way around a sports movie.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: He certainly does. Also, one of the things I love about sports movies is the intersection of an underdog film. Like, I find that they're the same.
And so that is something that I think he does very well as a director.
[00:10:45] Speaker C: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: Nice. Well, I'm looking forward to talking about many sports movies with you, Sybil in this series, and Billy Ray. Before we sort of introduce the show, is there anywhere that you would like to direct your many fans to?
[00:10:59] Speaker C: Oh.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: Or your many future fans, because your fans probably already know where to find you.
[00:11:04] Speaker C: Yeah, my fans, both of them know exactly where to find me. But I will be glad to. Yeah, you can follow me pretty much anywhere. I'm not really on all the socials like I used to be. I'm on Blue Sky. I'm on Instagram, and you can find me there. And letterboxd@ Billy Raybruton. And if you want to learn more about Corner to the Stars and see where it's playing in your area, you.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Can go to corner to the stars.com Sounds very good. Yeah.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: All right, before we get started today, a few notes first. As usual, the beginning of the episode will have a spoiler free section, but listen out for our spoiler warning when it comes. If you haven't yet watched the movie.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: We'D also like to remind you that you can Follow the podcast on social media. Our Facebook page is everyromcom Podcast and blog. Our Instagram is very Romcom. Our Twitter handle is very Romcom Pod. And you can also find us on Blueskyromcom.
[00:11:56] Speaker B: And as always, you can find the
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[00:12:12] Speaker A: Also now listen to our episodes on our YouTube channel at every rom com podcast. So far it is still audio only, everybody. But there's a cool feature where the videos have these little built in timestamps right on the video. So if you. If you want to skip to a particular section of the podcast that talks about a particular topic you're interested in, it makes it that much easier.
So please visit us on our YouTube channel and hit the subscribe button today.
And now we will get into the episode by listening to the trailer for Challengers.
Hi.
[00:12:52] Speaker C: Hey.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Natashi Duncan. She's gonna turn a whole family into millionaires.
She'll have a fashion line, the foundation.
[00:13:06] Speaker C: You're incredible today.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Thank you. I mean, it wasn't even like tennis.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: It was an entirely different game.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Hey, come hang out with us later. Want me to come tuck you in? No, we just keep talking.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: How often does this happen? Going after the same girl?
[00:13:26] Speaker C: Not as often as you think.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: We usually have different types of.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: So you're saying I should be flattered? Aren't you everybody's type?
Come here.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: Which one of us?
[00:13:47] Speaker A: He's not in love with you.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: What makes you think I want someone to be in love with me? It's nice to see you lit up.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: About something, even if it's my girlfriend.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: Art's got his coach, Tashi Donaldson, who also is his wife. I'm playing for both of us. Tashi.
[00:14:11] Speaker B: I think maybe we're disturbed by the.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Fact that she could have been in this alone. Like me when we were teenagers.
[00:14:17] Speaker C: When were teenagers.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Hey, I love you.
I know.
All right, I'm gonna cut it off there.
Fantastic trailer. Really. Even though it doesn't use the award winning music from the movie in the trailer.
[00:14:34] Speaker C: Yeah, that trailer. I remember the first time I saw that trailer. I was instantly. I mean, we had to watch that trailer for a long time because the movie kept getting pushed.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Speaker C: And so I feel like I was watching that trailer for a year and a half until the film finally came out, which normally would make me a little hesitant. Hesitant about a film, because I'm like, it keeps getting pushed. It's probably not that good. And then you. You know, then I remember seeing it in a packed theater at the Arrow Theater in Santa Monica, and it was like, oh, no. They just pushed it. It's dope. Sorry. Excuse my language.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: No, no. Dude, do you remember our podcast? You can swear as much as you.
[00:15:05] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:15:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: Say all of the words you want.
[00:15:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. Like, it is. You know, they. They clearly are. Are bearing the lead and not giving you the. The Trent Reznor Atticus Ross score there, but it is definitely in. It's in keeping with the spirit of that.
Of score.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: All right, let's talk about challengers and its info. So Challengers first came out April 26, 2024. It was written by Justin Karitskis, directed by Luca Guadagino, and by the way, Jennifer sent me a video to say that. And he says it so fast. So when you say his name, make sure you say it that fast, because that is required, apparently.
It's also starring Zendaya, Mike Feist and Josh o'. Connor.
[00:15:53] Speaker C: So, yeah, Challengers is a ode to sexual fluidity. It is a movie featuring a love triangle of tennis players at different points in their careers. You have Tashi Donaldson, played by Zendaya, who is formerly a very promising tennis star who gets injured in college and now finds herself coaching her husband, Art Donaldson, a tennis star who is now in a slump.
Art is played by Mike Feist. And I just. I'm just spoiling. I'm spoiling it right now. I am hashtag Team Art.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:16:27] Speaker C: With Tashi enters, Art is a supposedly easy challenger tournament to build his confidence. They are reunited with Patrick Zweig, Art's former doubles partner, roommate, and best friend, and Tashi's ex boyfriend.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: And I'm hashtag Team Patrick, so.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: Oh, a little bit of a scuzzball there, Patrick, played, of course, by Josh O'. Connor. Patrick is broke and now ranked 271st and wants to win a tournament in order to get into the qualifiers for the US Open. But when he finds himself facing off with Art, personal tensions among the three become just as significant as the very tennis that they're playing.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: I was gonna say Sybil. Like, my guess. Like, if I had to guess, I would say you're not Team Art or Team Patrick, but you are Team Tashi. Am I correct about that or not?
[00:17:12] Speaker B: I'm team no. 1.
Okay, okay, I know, I know.
[00:17:17] Speaker C: Controversial.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, all right. So we have people representing each side, and then Sybil representing nobody whatsoever.
[00:17:25] Speaker C: Still is challenging the challengers.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Oh, man.
Okay. So in terms of interesting facts, like, there's an unending number of things I want to learn about this movie, to my great frustration, I was not able to find any DVD that had commentary tracks. But maybe someday.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: So in terms, I would love to see a Criterion version of this so much.
[00:17:48] Speaker C: Yeah, we'll get it. We'll get it.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: I hope so. I hope so.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: So in terms of some things that I did learn, first of all, Challenger screenwriter Justin Karitskis became interested in tennis while watching the US Open match between Naomi Osaka and Serena Williams in 2018. He also saw the dramatic possibilities of tennis at that time.
He told Indiewire, quote, so much of the impulse to write the movie in the first place came from this moment of witnessing what felt like a wordless communication between people on a tennis court and thinking about ways that you could communicate action and drama through gesture and glances and not using words.
[00:18:25] Speaker C: I will say I saw that exact Same match in 2018, the Osaka Williams match. It is kind of a legendary match. I can see why that would inspire somebody to write something like this. I also. Justin Kariske's was there at the screening that I saw at the Arrow Theater, and it was. And so I got to hear him for, like, 30, 45 minutes talk about writing this film, and I kind of fell in love with him as a screen. I was already kind of obsessed after watching the movie, but then just listening him talk about screenwriting, that was a whole other level of appreciation. And I think. I think tennis movies have always suffered from the fact that.
That you always have to manufacture or the filmmakers always feel the need to manufacture drama to go along with the tennis. I'm thinking of something like Woody Allen's Match Point, which is a film that I quite enjoy. But, like, there's this whole, like, murder thing and, like, obsession, and it's like, can it just really be about the tennis? I don't mind if it's about the relationships, but, like, can it actually be about the tennis? And I think Challengers is maybe the first movie to actually do that, right?
[00:19:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm jealous that you got to see him talk about screenwriting. That's so cool.
[00:19:33] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, there was a cool screening. Very cool screening.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: So Challengers was Kritzkas's first screenplay, and he previously worked as a playwright of mostly unproduced plays.
He said it was important to him that Challenger's main character, Tashi, be portrayed as A black woman. He said, quote, the story of American tennis is black women for the past however many decades.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Totally true.
[00:19:56] Speaker C: I have. I have no argument with that statement. I think especially when I was really, you know, when I was coming up and when I was grow, you know, kind of, you know, becoming an adult. I mean, there were two figures in tennis for me. One was Serena Williams because she was omnipresent everywhere. And then there was Andy Roddick because he was my husband and just doesn't know it yet.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: You have so many husbands, Billy.
[00:20:19] Speaker C: I have so many husbands. I mean, it's just a line out the door.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: Yep.
The screenplay first reached producers Amy Pascal and Rachel o', Connor, who passed it on to Zendaya. And she was so interested in the project that she also wanted to co produce.
Luca Guadagnino was then brought on as director. Guadagnino references his take on the movie being inspired by films of classic Hollywood directors, including Howard Hawks, Preston Sturgess, Ernst Lubitsch, and Mitchell Liesen. And I gotta say, one of my double features was an Ernst Lubich film before he even. I even knew that he said that. And I've been watching a lot of Mitchell Lies in this year. So, like, I feel.
Yeah, I feel I'm bonding with Guadagnino from a distance now.
[00:21:02] Speaker C: It's very weird, too. It's like when you hear that. If you hear that on the. The offset, like, these inspirations, it's like, how in the hell. And then you watch challengers, and it's like, oh. Like, it's honestly kind of dripping with those filmmakers like you. I mean, just, you know, just in the interplay between the characters and the way the drama unfold, roles like, Especially like Preston Sturgis, I'm like, yeah, I mean, he's right. Like, those are like. Once you see the movie, all of those inspirations make sense.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
And Guadagnino was interested in casting Josh o' Connor based on his work in the movie God's Own country, and Mike Feist based on his work in west side Story.
And this is interesting. I found out Zendaya's best friend and personal assistant, Darnell Apling, was cast as the umpire after Guadagnino noticed him standing in. In that role. Appling was then sent to umpire school to prepare for the role. And he's so perfect in it, too. Like, just a great choice.
[00:22:00] Speaker C: That was a piece of. That was a tidbit I was not aware of, so that's pretty awesome. I. I will say, yeah, if folks out there have not seen God's Own country with Josh o'. Connor. Yeah, terrific film.
The filmmaker. Francis is just a super amazing filmmaker. I had the good fortune of hanging out with him on the film festival circuit when his first shorts were on this. On the. Were out there. And the shorts that eventually got him God's own Country and boy, it's just. It's one of the best sort of gay love stories, honestly, of the past couple decades.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I actually considered it as a double feature. It's not in there, but I did consider it because. Yeah, amazing movie. Yeah.
[00:22:35] Speaker C: And who could say anything about Mike Feist and West side Story other than.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Damn, I still haven't seen it. Oh, yeah.
[00:22:44] Speaker C: Oh, gosh, that's just unacceptable.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: Sometime I've been too busy watching the films of Mitchell Lies and okay, what can I say?
[00:22:50] Speaker C: All right, I guess.
[00:22:54] Speaker A: So. Justin Karitskis was working with the filmmakers during pre production and production, which allowed for ongoing collaborative work on the script, which I love.
And Brad Gilbert, a former tennis player as well as a tennis coach and commentator, was brought on as the film's tennis consultant and put the actors in a tennis boot camp.
[00:23:14] Speaker C: Yeah, anyone who knows anything about tennis, the name Brad Gilbert, it just rings in their ears. He has been around so many of the great tennis players for the last like two, three decades. And having him involved, I'm sure is the. The very tip top reason why the tennis in this film looks so great.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, especially since Guadagnino City didn't know anything so.
[00:23:35] Speaker C: Right.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Actor Josh o' Connor told Deadline, quote, I've never worked out to that extent in all my life. And all of the confidence that brought for me. It felt like Luca leading me to this place of Patrick Zweig, full of confidence and forthright.
And to help the filmmakers visualize and improve upon the tennis scenes, tennis pros were brought in to play out the games as written in the script, which. Yeah, I feel like you'd almost have to do that.
[00:24:00] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: The tennis scenes were filmed with both the actors and body doubles of the actors, only Mike Feist had prior tennis experience, which is crazy to me.
[00:24:11] Speaker B: That's absolutely bananas to me. Like this, this film actually has like real. It shows so much real tennis.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:18] Speaker C: It is interesting though.
I remember very specifically at the screening. So I saw this screening, it was with Philip Iscove, who is also a fellow podcaster, and Griffin Newman. And after the film was over, the conversation was had about who actually knew how to play tennis and who didn't.
And I feel like Everybody correctly thought that Mike Feist was the one who.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Knew how to play tennis nice.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: And it's just. And it's just little things too. It's like, it's like you can just tell. But also it's just like Mike Feist just looks like somebody who probably grew up playing tennis. I hate to say, I don't want that to sound reductive, but, you know, he looks a little WASPy.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't have any preconceptions about tennis players, to be honest. Like, I don't know, like, I grew up in a small town in the Midwest, so yeah, it wasn't big. It wasn't a big deal where I.
[00:25:08] Speaker C: Lived, but yeah, yeah, it wasn't a big deal where I lived either. I just got into it and sort of made it. I made it happen.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: So the film was shot in only 41 days, but Guadagnino engaged in rehearsals, storyboarding models and other extensive pre production work before the shoot.
And as you said, Billy Ray, the Challengers was delayed for a while. It was originally going to be released in September 2023, but its release was delayed due to the Seg Aftra strike until April 26, 2024.
It had a budget of 55 million, which actually feels quite high, but. Yeah, but a worldwide gross of 96 million. So it made up for that.
And it received four Golden Globe nominations, including best motion picture, musical or comedy and one best original score. But it was shut out of the Oscars entirely, which I could not believe when that happened, actually.
[00:26:02] Speaker C: Such bullshit. Total bullshit.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: It did seem really weird at the time too. I was like, I don't understand how Challengers, one of the. One of the movies that is going to be like one of the films that we're going to remember forever. And people who watched it knew that this is going to be like, you know, I mean, I don't want to put up with her with Godfather, but like it's going to be in that land where you talk about it for a long time that people were like, oh, just nothing. Nothing.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: Yeah, they really awarded Gwagnino for call me by your name. And then they like proceeded to like freeze out Suspiria, Challengers and Bones and all. And I'm just like, what? Like all like, I understand a little more Suspirian Bones and all because they're both horror and they're both rather extreme in some aspects. But Challengers just seems like Oscar bait there. I would have like nominated all the actors, all the main actors, director, editor, score, like Cinematographer. Come on.
[00:26:51] Speaker C: I think, I think part of the issue, I think, was twofold. I, I, I generally always think, like, if they would have released this film in, like, October or. Because the problem with this was is that Guadagnino had two films in 2024, right? Yeah, he had this and he had Queer. And if you watch the second half of the year, he's really just out there promoting Queer. Like, he's not out there pushing Challengers the way he is queer, because that's, you know, maybe it's the more obvious awards contender. I would argue that they are both equally unobvious awards contenders that both deserved recognition, but challengers, like, I feel like if it had been released later in the year, it would have been a different conversation. It doesn't mean the Oscars would have gone for it. I, I, but at the same time, they would have had a. Definitely had a better chance.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess you can guess we're veering into general opinion category. And I guess listeners, you can probably guess what our general opinion of the.
[00:27:45] Speaker C: Movie is already garbage, but just total garbage.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: But hell, let's just go play this out anyways. I'll start just because I, So when I first saw this movie, I, I will honestly say that I rated it a little lower. And I think it's because, like, I loved Call me by your name, Suspiria and Bones and all so much that, like, my expectations were, like, sky high. And when I saw Challengers, like, I don't know what, it didn't meet, but it went on First View, and it didn't quite hit me as hard. But then when I subsequently watched it for this podcast, I was like, oh, no, I get it now. And, like, it's just like. And then I watched the third time, and I'm like, even more layers revealed themselves. And this is just one of those movies that I think just keeps having layers if you keep watching it. And I think it will grow on you. So if you're somebody who watched Challengers once and was kind of meh about it or kind of like, it's good, but it's, you know, whatever, watch it again. 100. Just watch it again.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that. It's very much. And I'm going to say it's very Coen Brothers in that way where, like, you might watch it and be like, oh, okay. But, like, as you continue, you're like, you get, you catch more, you catch more of, like, the looks between people and more of the dialogue jumps and, like, it just Grows in a way that you're like, I understand what's happening. You understand the dialogue of the tennis. Whereas maybe the first time you were paying attention to like their acting or you were paying attention to like what was actually being said on the page instead of like what was not being said on the page.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: I'm going to put in here the one layer I noticed the most is the soundtrack cues. Like I want to go back again, again and just like study them. Because like you can learn so much just from the soundtrack cues in this movie. Billy Ray, Sorry, we've been talking it your turn.
[00:29:25] Speaker C: So I, I saw this. So I, I remember the first time I saw this. I remember going home writing my letterbox review. It was an easy five out of five for me.
I saw this 11 times in theaters.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Wow, that's awesome.
[00:29:40] Speaker C: After the 11th time, my score was absolutely still a five star score. I liked it even more like this film, like Luca Guadagnino for me is similar to Wes Anderson in certain ways in the ma. It just in the terms of Wes Anderson who is. I, I oscillate on whether Wes Anderson or Steven Spielberg are my favorite filmmakers. I, I have for many, many years now. But Wes Anderson, even the films of his that don't land for me after about the third or fourth watch, they end up being my favorite films of his because the more I watch them, I start noticing more of the subtlety and the nuance and the little character things that you maybe didn't think were in there or you just wrote the film off for being just more obsessed with style. But then if you actually watch them multiple times, you start seeing those, you start peeling away those layers of like nuance and character development. And I feel the same way about Luca Guadagnino. I think the only film of his that I really love from the first moment I saw it was Challengers. Like every other film of his, it has taken me a couple of views to really appreciate and I've liked, I've liked pretty much everything he's done and loved a few things he's done. But I think what you mentioned, you just said the dialogue and the tennis, which I think is so crucial for people who are watching this film on a second or third time because that is part of what makes this screenplay so remarkable and part of what the screenwriter talked about in the Q A was that he wanted the tennis matches to feel like full on dialogue scenes with the actors with absolutely no words spoken. And he pulls it off like, I don't know how he Pulls it off. I can't think of any other sports movie that's been able to do that as effectively. If, if there was, it would probably be a boxing movie or something like that, but boy, oh, boy, he nails it. And like, so much of this film is tennis, but it's like they're having a conversation on the court. And I just find that to be remarkable.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was one of my favorite parts. I. I saw this. I only saw this twice in the theaters. I saw it first. And I'm in Vegas and we have kind of not the best screen sometimes. And so I saw it on the screen where I was like, you know what? I need to see this on a bigger screen, a better screen.
[00:31:54] Speaker C: So when I was showing it on the sphere.
What, are they not showing it on the sphere?
[00:32:01] Speaker B: No, absolutely not.
[00:32:03] Speaker C: You can see it on the sphere. What a great place to see challengers.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: I would probably vomit.
[00:32:09] Speaker C: Well, I think that's what a lot of people did when they saw you too, there.
[00:32:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So then I went to LA and I went to see it and I saw it on an IMAX screen and now I'd already seen it the first time and it was that second time that I could actually, like, really enjoy the, like, the direction of. We're. Look at their eyes, the. The discovery on the faces, the. The direction of the camera to show you the conversation back and forth. Because I find the conversation so interesting while they're playing the tennis. And it is absolutely a genius move on the director's part.
[00:32:45] Speaker C: No, it is. I mean, it's like this was, to me is just like, occasionally you'll see a film where it really, truly does feel just like the perfect confluence of people. Right. Where you have the perfect director, the perfect writer, the perfect cast, the perfect muse. Like, everything just fits. And. And I get asked often, not often, but it's not like I have this conversation every day, but anytime I get into a conversation about, like, what makes, in my mind, what makes a perfect movie, because there are a lot of movies that I do think are perfect.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:18] Speaker C: And I think, you know, if. If we're going to be open to films, you know, being flawed, we have to be open to them being flawless to a degree as well. And for me, it is that perfect confluence of, like, convergence of, like. Of like, these disparate talents who just all fit together on the right story. And I really think this is an example of that. I can't think of anybody involved with this film on a craft level who. That if you took them Out. It would not be a huge blow to the film.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: It would also be a completely different film if you took any one of the people out. It would be completely different film.
[00:33:52] Speaker C: Absolutely. Cinematographer. You take. You take them out. I don't know what this film is. So much of this is the way it's shot. You take out Marco Costa, the editor, like, my God, the editing of this film. It should have won Oscar for it. Like, you take him out. What is this movie? Is it just a basic ass tennis movie? Probably. And, like, it's. And, you know, and you have to give all that credit. Not all the credit, but you have to give a big chunk of that credit to Guadalupe, who really is just a master at commanding. You know, he's become one of the filmmakers I'm most excited about because he's. He's open to all sorts of genres. He's never pigeonholing himself into one thing. But you can watch a Luca Guadagnino movie and tell it's a Luca Guadagnino.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: You know what my favorite thing about Guadagnino films is? They are some of the only films where I feel like I can experience senses beyond sight and sound. Like, I literally will watch his films sometimes, and I feel like I can feel the temperature or I can taste something, or I. Or I could touch something. It's weird. Like, I don't know if this happens to anybody else with him, but that's. For me, that's Luca Guadagnino's signature. For me.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: That's a great way to put it. It is very, like, he is very sensory, and I think a lot of it is because of the way he chooses his shots where he, like, he'll do, like, a very fast jump cut to showing something, and you'll, like. You're like, I. Like, I feel the sugar on their face. Like, I. You know, I know about the, like, sweat dripping. Like, it's so visceral what he does.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:16] Speaker C: You think about something like Queer, which was his latest film, and he does this really phenomenal thing, which is so simple from a filmmaking craft perspective, where he'll have a character, like, sitting with another character and then. And have you both seen Queer?
[00:35:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I have.
[00:35:32] Speaker C: And then it'll show, like, almost the ghost, like, image of, like, that person's hand reaching out and touching the other person.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: And.
[00:35:39] Speaker C: And it's just such a simple thing that, like. But I'm like, why isn't this done? Like, how does this feel? Like the. How does this feel? Like I'm watching Something new and fresh. That is an antiquated technology, but it feels like it's the first time I'm seeing it. And it makes you like. Like you feel like you're touching this part. It's just. It's kind of remarkable. I don't know how he does it.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, he's amazing. Well, let's. Let's move on from general opinion then and get straight into like. I'll talk a little bit about Luca Guadalupe and we can, of course, course, give more of our opinion throughout the episode. But Luca Guagnino was born August 10, 1971 in Palermo, Italy, and he spent part of his childhood in Ethiopia, where his father was working as a professor. He became interested in filmmaking at age 9 and used a Super 8 camera throughout his adolescence.
And at college he studied literature and film history.
His first feature film was the protagonists in 1999, a fan thrillers starring frequent collaborator Tilda Swindon, which he wrote and directed. And I haven't seen any of his work before. I think. I think Bigger Splash or is I Am Love. I can't. Well, it's here in the document somewhere. But those are the first earliest I've seen. Have you seen any of his early stuff? Billy Ray or Sybil?
[00:36:51] Speaker C: I've seen all of his stuff. So I've seen. I've seen every film he's done up to this point. And yeah, Protagonist is a. Is a weird little movie. I actually talked about it on a podcast years ago. It was about a. It was. It was a podcast about movies, about making movies. And that's what Protagonist is about. It's about this Italian film crew.
They're reconstructing the real life killing of this Egyptian man.
And it's just. Yeah, it's a phenomenal film. Tilda Swinton is great in it and I hope more people check it out. It's hard to find.
[00:37:25] Speaker A: Yeah, but.
[00:37:26] Speaker C: But it is. If you can find it, it's really terrific.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that's been the issue with me watching its early stuff. I hope to eventually make like rectify that. Yeah.
[00:37:35] Speaker C: Melissa P, I think for a while was weirdly on Tubi, but it's not.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: On there anymore to be giveth and.
[00:37:42] Speaker C: Taketh away, but it sure does an equal measure.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: Yeah, it's Melissa P is his another film he directed in the early 2000s and he also directed two documentaries during that time.
And in 2009, he began making higher profile movies with I Am Love Again starring Tilda Swindon, which ended up being nominated for the Golden Globe for best performance Foreign film. He followed that up with two feature documentaries in Concio Italiano and Bertolucci on Bertolucci before releasing a bigger splash in 2015.
And of course, most people know his breakout with mainstream audiences came with Call Me by youy name in 2017, which was nominated for four Oscars, including Best Picture, and won the Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay for James Ivory.
He followed up that with a remake of Suspiria set in Berlin, which kind of divided critics and audiences, but I love their Suspiria remake so much. So that's just my personal note there.
[00:38:41] Speaker C: That's where we finally go our separate ways.
[00:38:44] Speaker A: Okay.
I'm in love with that movie. Like, I, Yeah, that. Another time. We don't have time to talk about.
[00:38:51] Speaker C: Why right now, but let me just comment on the fact that he, that he did not get a Best Director nomination for Call Me by youy Name, which was and is still a travesty.
[00:39:01] Speaker A: In 2019, he released a short film called the Staggering Girl with a high profile cast including Julianne Moore, Kyle MacLachlan and Mia Goth.
And in 2020, he tackled a limited series with the coming of age show We Are who We Are on hbo. Max. I've just started watching it.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I just, so good, so good, so good.
[00:39:23] Speaker C: I mean, I love that we're just so good. I, I, I think Jack Dylan Grazer is just adorable. I just want to, like, pinch his cheeks. So it was nice seeing him move on into teenager mode.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Also, like, this show is like, again, it's coming of age, which, you know, is also my jam. But I think that this is done so different than most coming of age, like, kind of dramas are done.
And so when I first started watching it, I didn't know that Guadal was any part of it. And when I, when I was like, wow, these are really, like, unusual. And then I looked it up, I was like, I understand now this makes sense.
[00:40:00] Speaker C: Directed all eight episodes. And also, you know, anybody who's putting Chloe Sevignier in a lead role is getting my thumbs up because she has long been underutilized by mainstream cinema.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:13] Speaker A: So additionally, in 2020, he released the documentary Salvatore Ferragamo, Shoemaker of Dreams. And then in 2022, Guadagnino released the cannibal romance Bones and all.
Then in 2012. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
[00:40:26] Speaker C: No, I just that, that's really, that's really the best way I can encapsulate anything about Bones and all is just with a hearty, oh, well, we'll Talk about.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: We're going to be talking about that much later in the episode because it's in my double features.
Then in 2024, he released today's movie Challengers, as well as an adaptation of the William S. Burroughs book Queer.
And Guadagnino's next film is after the Hunt. It will be released later this year and stars Julia Roberts. And this is its IMDb description. A college professor finds herself at a personal and professional crossroads when a star pupil levels an accusation against one of her colleagues and a dark secret from her own past threatens to come to light. End quote. And I find it interesting that now he's got Julia Roberts. Like, in the past, that probably would have been Tilda Swinton's part, but now Julia Roberts is stepping in.
[00:41:17] Speaker C: Yeah, Julia Roberts and Andrew Garfield. Like, he's definitely, he's definitely leveling up there. And IO. Edebiri. I mean, just a killer cast. Like a killer cast. And of course, Michael Stolberg, who, you know, was so, you know, crushed it and call me by your name. It's. It's so nice to see him back. Chloe, 70 also, like, yeah, I'm really excited to see what this is a, like what this is going to be. I mean, it feels very.
I don't know if anybody. I don't know if any of you saw the movie the Hunt with Mads Mikkelsen.
[00:41:50] Speaker A: No, no, I know what you're talking about, though.
[00:41:52] Speaker C: But there is a Mads Mickelson movie which is about similar.
It touches on similar territory in terms of thematics. So, yeah, I, I just. This is now like my most anticipated movie of next year.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: So. I mean, his movies are always pretty much my most anticipated movies. So him and Jordan Peele right now and Celine Song. Those are my three right now.
[00:42:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought you were gonna say Celine Sciamma.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: Oh, I liked her too. But Celine Song, like, I saw Past lives. And for me, that's another perfect movie, which, interestingly enough, the screenwriters are married to each other. So there you go.
[00:42:26] Speaker C: There you go.
[00:42:29] Speaker A: So let's see.
Guadagnino is also in pre production on three separate films, an adaptation of American Psycho.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: This is the movie that I'm the most excited about.
[00:42:39] Speaker A: Really.
[00:42:40] Speaker B: Him taking on American Psycho, which is a movie that I already think is a perfect movie I'm here for.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: Yeah, but like, that's the reason I'm not as excited about it. I'm like, guadamino couldn't you found something that wasn't perfect?
[00:42:51] Speaker B: No, but he's gonna do something. It's gonna be so amazing.
[00:42:54] Speaker C: How many wanted to cast. Who do you want him to cast as Bateman?
[00:42:59] Speaker B: That's. I don't know. I've never thought about that.
[00:43:02] Speaker C: I keep hearing, you know, I keep hearing Patrick Schwarzenegger. I keep hearing people say that he's going to get Josh o' Connor to do it. You know who I think should do it? And this could be a controversial.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Who. Who?
[00:43:14] Speaker C: Jacob Elordi.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, no, that makes sense.
[00:43:17] Speaker C: I think he's just. And I'm not his biggest fan. Like, I like him in a lot of stuff and there's some stuff where I feel like he's got a lot of growth to do as an actor, but I appreciate that he's out there taking the chances that give him that growth. And I just think he's kind of perfect for it. Just physically looks wise, attitude wise, you know, that said, if he was like, oh, I'm casting, you know, Josh o' Connor or somebody like that, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna sneeze on him. But I think Elordi would make a lot of sense.
[00:43:46] Speaker A: Well, I think Josh o' Connor's in one of his other films in pre production, if I'm not mistaken. He's possibly in the Romance that's starring Leah Seydoux.
[00:43:54] Speaker C: So maybe.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: Yeah, And I like that. Keep Josh o' Connor in the Romance. Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: Josh o' Connor is going to be too goofy for that. Like, I just.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: No, he is hot as challengers. Come on.
[00:44:04] Speaker B: No, no, for American Psycho.
[00:44:06] Speaker A: Oh, oh, okay. For American Psycho.
[00:44:08] Speaker B: American Psycho.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe.
[00:44:09] Speaker C: Maybe Mike Feist is just too adorable for it.
[00:44:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So then the third movie that he's in pre production is a movie about the company Open AI guy. So he's. Yeah, like you said, Billy Ray. He's all over. He does every kind of genre.
And then Find Me, the sequel to Call Me by youy Name is listed as in development and I imagine. But they can really take their time with that too, because the sequel, the book sequel takes place, I think, maybe even 20 years later, if I remember correctly. I read the book, but I can't remember the exact time span, but it takes place quite a bit later. So he can wait for Timothy Chalamet, like grow up a bit, you know.
[00:44:42] Speaker C: Well, I don't know that they're going to be able to get James Ivory to write the.
Yeah, he's like 130 now, so he might not make it.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the key. That's the key. One key element they mean, how do.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: You know it's not just sitting under his bed already?
[00:44:57] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:44:57] Speaker C: It's already done. Ivory did it. Wrote him back to back.
[00:45:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:45:03] Speaker A: So Guadagnino tends to film adapted material and is only the writer on nine of his projects, but he has produced many of his films and also produces projects for other directors with 31 production credits in total.
All right, and then I'm gonna take it over to you, Sybil, to talk about Zendaya.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: All right, let's talk about Zendaya. Zendaya's full name is Zendaya Marie Stormer Coleman. That's a lot of. That's a lot of words.
[00:45:30] Speaker A: I know these hyphen people, man, if they marry each other, it's gonna be like, I don't know what's gonna happen. They're all gonna have to just go by their first name.
[00:45:37] Speaker C: The way. Can. Can she marry someone with, like, another ridiculously long name?
[00:45:41] Speaker A: Exactly.
There you go.
[00:45:43] Speaker C: Can she marry Daniel Day Lewis and it be Zendaya Marie Stormer Coleman Day Lewis?
[00:45:48] Speaker B: Yep, I'm here.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: I'm here.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: I just. And then we'll just. That's why he has to go. Just go buy Zendaya. It's too hard otherwise.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:55] Speaker C: Or can it be something basic, like, it's Zendaya Marie Stormer Coleman Jones.
[00:46:00] Speaker B: Yeah, totally Jones.
[00:46:01] Speaker A: It's looking like it might be Holland, so, you know.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it might be. Holland's pretty easy.
[00:46:06] Speaker C: I'm okay with that. I think that's. I think that's an adorable coupling.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: They're adorable. Okay. She was born September 1, 1996, in Oakland, California. Both of her parents were teachers, but her mother was also a stage manager, which led Zendaya to hanging out in the California Shakespeare Theater Group and being surrounded by acting people. All right, so she, like, kind of grew up in it as a child, right? Exactly. As a child, Zendaya began acting in theater, dance, and modeling, which you can really tell, like, by her, like, how her body moves. Right. You can see that she had that background. By middle school, Zendaya decided to pursue performing full time, and her father moved with her to Los Angeles to become her manager. You know, hopefully that all worked out for them.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: I mean, apparently. Apparently, he's still. I think he still is, from what I read.
[00:46:52] Speaker B: Okay, good, good. Because I'm always like, oh, that can go be so poorly. So I'm grateful for that, because, you know, her family.
Zendaya had her first major break at age 13 with a co starring role in the Disney Channel show Shake it up which ran for three seasons and I've never heard of me either.
[00:47:10] Speaker A: We are not the right, we are not the correct age bracket.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Everybody I've heard, I heard of most of the things that she did. Her first film role was for the Disney Channel TV movie Frenemies in 2012.
Zendaya's early career also included the release of self titled album and series of music videos, which is how I first found out about Zendaya.
[00:47:31] Speaker A: Really?
[00:47:31] Speaker B: Yes. Was that. Yeah.
In 2014, Zendaya starred in the dance focused Disney Channel comedy movie Zapped with an exclamation point. Then from 2015 to 2018, she starred in another Disney Channel show, Casey Undercover.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: And I will have you know I watched Zapped for the purpose of this podcast. So not bad. Not necessarily good, but not bad.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Okay, cool, cool. In 2017, she had her feature film debut playing MJ in Spider man, which is how probably most of us know her. A role she reprised in the two Spider man sequels. She also met her future fiance Tom Holland, working on the film and they are super cute together, as we've already talked about.
Later, in 2017, Zendaya also co starred in the musical the Greatest Showman, for which she sang three songs, including the hit song Rewrite the Stars.
In 2019, Zendaya began acting in one of her best known projects, the dark HBO teen drama euphoria. She received two Emmy Awards for her work on Euphoria, and in 2020 she became the youngest actor to receive the Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actress in a drama series at 24 years old.
In 2023, she also received a Golden Globe for her work on the series, which is currently expected to release a long, very long delayed third season in 2026. Aren't they like super old now and like whatever.
[00:48:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I feel, I feel like this much beleaguered season.
I hope it goes well for everybody, but you know, I, I. Euphoria is not my jam.
It's never been my jam. I'm, I'm famously on the record as not even being as in a Zendaya fan until I saw Challengers.
This was the movie that made me be like, oh, I get it, I get it. And so now I am a fan. But I wasn't before Challengers.
[00:49:22] Speaker B: I got you. I got you. I loved her in Dunes. I was here for it. I was there.
Zendaya appeared in four feature films in 2021. She was very busy. The romantic drama Malcolm and Marie as A voice actor.
Wait, what?
[00:49:37] Speaker C: I just said boo.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: I've never even heard. Once again, I've not even heard of this movie.
She did a voice acting gig on Space Jam. A new legacy in a supporting role in Dune Part 1. Such a good movie. Oh, my gosh. And in Spider man. No Way Home, also a great movie.
Most recently in 2024, she appeared in Dune Part 2 and Challengers. It's a big year for her in my book. She received a Golden Globe nomination for best actress in a motion picture, musical or comedy for Challengers.
She currently has several projects in different stages of production. A romance film called the Drama co starring Robert Pattinson is in post production. She is in production on Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey.
[00:50:20] Speaker A: Like, who isn't in production on Christopher, by the way?
[00:50:24] Speaker B: Say the whole world. I might be called in on that any day. We don't know.
And she is a voice actor for Shrek 5.
And she is in pre production for Dune Messiah. Yes. And Spider Man. Brand new day again. Gonna be a great year when those come out.
In addition to her acting credits, Zendaya has nine production credits. And Euphoria's Emmy nomination for outstanding drama series made her the youngest woman to ever be nominated as a producer at 25 years old.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: Good job.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: So, guys, is she the greatest child Disney star success story?
[00:50:59] Speaker C: Oh, that's tough. I mean, because you have to take into account, like, Ryan Gosling and you have to take into account Kurt Russell and you have to take.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, Kurt Russell. Jesus Christ. You're right. He was in that. He was in that movie with Fred McMurray about, like, boy Scouts and stuff.
[00:51:17] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. He was in war, tennis shoes and like, you know, I mean, yeah. I mean, look, has. Has any Disney star won an Oscar yet?
Like, child star? I don't think so.
May. Did Haley Mills win something as a child? Like, no. Like, they used to give out Oscars for child support performances. I mean, I don't know. That's hard because, you know, would I say that she has permeated pop culture the way Ryan Gosling has? No.
Do I think she's far behind? Probably not.
But then there's also what, Justin Timberlake and Miley Cyrus and, like, Zac Efron and.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: Well, that's what I was gonna say. I don't know if she's been around long enough to have legs to say.
[00:52:05] Speaker C: Right.
[00:52:05] Speaker B: She is a Disney star. Right. Because you have to be around longer because a lot of these Disney, like, success stories in quotes, fizzle out, burn out, whatever, and Then we don't see them again, especially the women. And let's be real, the reason why is because they're women.
[00:52:18] Speaker A: But she's also getting into the production end early too. So I think she has. She's smart. I think she is smart trying to prepare herself for a long career.
[00:52:28] Speaker C: I think she's. I think she's after just different things than the other child stars have been after. Like Zac Efron wasn't like rushing to get his name on a project as producer. And you know, I agree. I think that's really smart. I think she's carving out a couple of different areas for herself.
So if the question was, does she have the best. Does she have the most drive and the most, you know, of. Of a Disney store, maybe? Because I think she's. She's certainly going for things that they didn't go for.
[00:52:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Learning about her, I became very impressed with her. So I really hope she becomes the best success story in some ways. Yeah.
So some other important cast and crew in the movie, Art is played by Mike Feist. Patrick is played by Josh o', Connor, the screenwriter. As we mentioned, Justin Karitskis cinematographer, Sayumbu Moktiprum. He also worked with Guadagnino on Queer Suspiria and Call Me by youy Name. So like, he is. And I. He's been on a lot of projects that are really well regarded and I think I need to make it my mission to actually seek out all of his work.
[00:53:34] Speaker C: I will, I will comment on my boy, Mike Feist.
I mean, yeah, Mike Feist, most people probably don't know outside of west side Story, but he was a big time theater guy. Before that, he was, you know, originated one of the lead roles in Dear Evan Hansen. He got a Tony Award nomination for that back in 2017.
He was also in Newsies on Broadway. That was his first hit. Like, that's when he first popped off and just, you know, I mean, clearly he did the. Oh, God. He did the Brokeback Mountain production in the West End as well and played Jack Twist and that next to Lucas Hedges, which I wish I could have seen that show. That would have been amazing. But yeah, just a tremendously talented actor. Started out in theater, moved on to television, then moved on to film. He kind of had a very natural progression. And from all accounts of folks, I know, I know some. I have some friends who've worked with him in projects and he's evidently just the best. Just the best to work with.
[00:54:29] Speaker A: So does this opinion of the actor inform Your choosing team art. I wonder. I wonder.
[00:54:35] Speaker C: Maybe. Okay, but I, but also I, you know, I just have a thing for those, those kind of, you know, clean cut, waspy guys.
[00:54:44] Speaker A: And I have a thing for those rough edged, I don't know, rough edged, arrogant guys. So there we go.
[00:54:52] Speaker C: It takes all types.
[00:54:54] Speaker A: All right, so let's, we'll get into the opening of the movie and I just wanted to highlight really quickly. The opening shots of this movie are just like, right, you're just thrown into cinema immediately. You see a tennis court at a diagonal angle. From above you see the shadows of the players. And then you get these great extreme close ups. First you see art with just like sweat dripping down towards the camera off of his face. You see Patrick looking like, just really like, I don't know, stressed and concentrated. And then you get such an extreme close up of Zendaya's Tashi's eyes, who is following the action and like that man, just seeing that, that's a hell of a way to open a film right there.
[00:55:36] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I, I almost feel like he's kind of teasing you a bit with the opening, which is what I love because you're getting these like glimpses and close ups and these little like cutaways to just like a hand with a tennis racket. And like it's, it's, it's, it's almost like in a moose bouche for the main course that's about to come.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: You're using all these great French terms. I love it. All right.
And then we get this choral music starts playing which there's a section, I want to talk about the music in general later, but this children's choir singing starts at that point and we jump to an overview, like a sort of a wide shot of New Rochelle, New York City view. And it tells us it is August 4, 2019 at 6:00pm and very specific. And we see that it's the New Rochelle Challenger, Phil's Tire Town Challenger, which puts us right down to earth. We are not at a very fancy tennis match. We are at a local sort of rough and tumble tennis match.
We see a score and gameplay between A. Donaldson and P. Zweig. And we see now a wide shot of the plane again, but not from above this time. The electronic music on the soundtrack then kicks in and we zoom into mid court and see Tashi looking back and forth.
So yeah, we're just, we're drawn right into the action, but we're drawn like into something that is happening basically at the end of the movie too.
[00:56:56] Speaker C: Absolutely.
I love what it does too is that I think people have this idea of tennis because they'll see Wimbledon or the US Open and they think, oh, it's all of kind glitz and glamorous. Like no, most of these qualifiers and these regional tournaments are like in very small cities. They're not particularly, you know, glamorous. And you. But. But yet you've still got like the biggest 10 of stars in the world playing at them, which is always really interesting. They show you that shot of New Rochelle and you're like, oh, this looks like any town anywhere. Yeah, like this is. There's nothing glamorous about this at all.
[00:57:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, and I forgot to mention the whole thing that we see at the beginning. There's the, the words over the screen say set one. And so the whole movie is sort of organized into these three sets of the tennis match. And yeah, I'll spoil. I was going to say this a bit, talk about this a bit later, but Justin Karitskis said that he kind of overlaid a three act structure onto three sets of a tennis match. So that becomes kind of like if you watch the movie with that in mind, then it becomes so much deeper and more interesting.
[00:57:59] Speaker C: Interesting, I think even geekier there, you know, there are multiple games to a set and I actually watched this once through that lens of like, okay, what are the games that I can count.
[00:58:12] Speaker A: Oh my.
[00:58:13] Speaker C: Between the sets. And I don't know how intentional it was or not, but you can go through and kind of count the games that are being played during the sets. You have to kind of watch it in different ways. You can't watch it straight through really to get that. But it's actually really fascinating. And then it builds up to the end, which we'll get to when it is match like and that's, you know that. I mean the whole movie is a tennis match.
[00:58:36] Speaker A: That's amazing. I would like. Oh my God. If you ever like had like extra time and just felt like you wanted to write out all the games, I would be so into that.
[00:58:44] Speaker C: You know, all I need is the right level of edibles and anything can happen.
[00:58:52] Speaker A: So let's see. So we then have the. On the screen it says two weeks earlier and this section we're going to be setting up the relationship between Art and Tashi Basic. You know, we already kind of talked about this. The basic elements is that are that Art is a tennis player, a pro tennis player who's kind of sliding down at the moment, he's in a slump. And Tashi is his. Both his coach and his wife. And like, this opening scene really does a lot to kind of show you the lifestyle of a serious pro tennis player.
[00:59:22] Speaker C: One of my favorite dynamics, because all of these characters have different dynamics with each other depending on what phase of their life they're in. And maybe my favorite dynamic, even though it might be the least sexy of the dynamics, is like modern day Art and Tashi, where they live this very sort of like, you know, they're very taken care of. Like that, you know, they're royalty.
[00:59:47] Speaker B: They're royalty.
[00:59:48] Speaker C: Exactly. And like, but there's this, like, there's like this weird connection between them, but also this disconnection between them. He clearly knows that something's off and, and is obviously concerned that, you know, she might leave him. Like, she's getting frustrated not only because, you know, of her injury, but because of his slump. And it's like that dynamic to me is so fascinating. I could have watched a whole film just of that dynamic.
[01:00:13] Speaker A: Yeah, like Tashi, like, as you said, Billy Ray, Tashi's injured. And like she would, she is somebody who would have been in Art's place or doing even better potentially had she not been injured. And one of these, like really kind of, one kind of sad thing you see is she's looking over sort of ad copy for Aston Martin X Donaldson's, and under that it says game changer and she adds an S. Game changer.
[01:00:37] Speaker C: Right, right.
[01:00:39] Speaker A: And you're just like, that's a little sign that Tashi just like so badly still wants to be in that spotlight that Art is able to be in and she is not.
[01:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah, she's still trying to be relevant and like she's trying to live her glory through Art. And Art is well aware. Like he even says at some point he's like, I know that I am, you know, I'm carrying us. I know that I'm doing this for you because at what point is Art actually not doing this for himself? It's interesting to me. Like, I think about, would Art actually be a tennis star at all? Would he have given up tennis? Would he just like, like, you know, be a used card sale man or something?
Did he really love the game or does he love the game because he loves her?
[01:01:15] Speaker C: Well, I also, I also wonder, and I've always thought that his slump is connected to what's going on in their relationship because I feel like, I feel like she has probably been putting off some very weird vibes because she's going through something clear. Because it was supposed to to be her. She was supposed to be, you know, playing at the highest level, the number one tennis star in the world. Yes, Art and yes, Patrick were good tennis players, blah, blah. It was supposed to be her. And so now she's having to live vicariously through this guy.
And she's clearly not completely fulfilled. He probably knows she's not fulfilled, which in my mind is directly what's leading him to the slump. Because he has been playing for her. And if she is got one foot out the door, why am I still playing for this person? But of course I'm still playing for this person. So many complicated feelings.
[01:02:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one thing, one thing interesting thing to me is how, like, in this dynamic between them, and this is one of the first things you see is in this scene, there's like also this weird sort of like mother child thing almost going on with them. Like, there's this part where she's preparing him for, like, going into play and he spits his gum into her hand. By the way, he spits his gum into Patrick's hand at a different point in the movie.
[01:02:31] Speaker C: Yep.
[01:02:32] Speaker A: And she also ruffles her. His hair, like, almost like he's a child.
But, I mean, she also talks to him like a coach. She's like, decimate that little. But like, there's this maternal aspect which you see show up again in a later part of the movie I'll talk about. But yeah, it's. It's a very weird dynamic among between them in all ways.
Okay. And let's see. The goal for Art, the goal they're aiming towards right now is the US Open. But Tashi is afraid. But he loses a game that he's supposed to be able to easily win in this first sequence.
And then Tashi says, I'm gonna have to pull you out of. I think it's Cincinnati. And she decides she's going to put him into the New Rochelle Challenger. She says, you need to start winning, so we need to go somewhere where there's absolutely nobody on the other side of the net who can shake your compound confidence and question. It seems to be like Patrick seems to imply later that Tashi would have known he was playing in that match. What do you guys think? Did she know Patrick was playing in that match or did she come into it?
[01:03:29] Speaker C: I think she did. I think she absolutely did.
[01:03:32] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:03:33] Speaker B: I've never thought about it.
[01:03:34] Speaker C: I.
[01:03:35] Speaker B: Why would she put. I question. And then why would she put him in that match knowing that it's very possible that he's gonna lose?
[01:03:42] Speaker C: Because I don't actually think that's her biggest concern. Like, to me, this all culminates to this ending, which, to me has been entirely orchestrated by Tashi to get Art's confidence back. And I think she correctly realizes that he's not going to be able to get his confidence back until he and Patrick are back together.
And to me, a lot of. I'm not saying that there isn't some complication there with her feelings towards Patrick. Like, this, to me, is a situation where none of these three people should really be together. They should just be, like, friends and 100.
[01:04:16] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
I'm the other side of you guys, too now. So for each other, yeah, we will get to it.
[01:04:25] Speaker C: They make great friends. They make great rivals. But. But, yeah, I think a lot of this is her orchestrating what she thinks has to happen to get what she wants.
[01:04:33] Speaker A: Interesting.
[01:04:34] Speaker C: And I think part of that is getting Art back to where he needs to be.
[01:04:39] Speaker B: Yeah. I've never thought of it like that. I mean, I love that. I love that take. I'm gonna watch it once again. Another reason to watch this movie. I'm gonna watch it with that idea in my head because I love the idea that, like, that Tashi is like, I am this great manipulator and planner, and I planned this out, which, I mean, listen, she has that kind of. She has that kind of vibe. She totally could. But I've never thought of her as a. As a person when I've watched this film and been like, oh, yeah, no, she orchestrated all of this so that we get to that last.
That last little bit. I really thought that she did not expect him to be there, and he actually throws, like, a monkey wrench into the whole situation.
So I'm intrigued and excited to watch it with that perspective.
Right?
[01:05:18] Speaker C: Yep.
[01:05:19] Speaker A: So Justin Karitskis told Variety that the idea to have the character of Art play in a challenger event as a key plot point was inspired by his reading the book Open by Andre Agassi, where he just. Where Agassi describes his coach, Brad Gilbert, you know, the tennis consultant on this film, entering him in a challenger event when he was doing poorly.
So that's interesting.
[01:05:40] Speaker C: Okay, be careful with your wording there. Entering him in a challenger event could be very misleading. Oh, in a movie like Challengers.
What do you mean entering him?
[01:05:52] Speaker B: I understand.
[01:05:53] Speaker C: In a challenger's event?
[01:05:55] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:05:56] Speaker C: For a movie like this, that could mean two different things.
[01:05:59] Speaker B: I mean, it could be a very churro situation.
[01:06:01] Speaker A: For once, my mind was out of the gutter. My God.
[01:06:04] Speaker C: I know. Get it back. We're talking about challengers.
[01:06:06] Speaker A: God damn it.
I'll try. I'll do my. Well, we're good. About to talk about Patrick now, so that should help.
[01:06:13] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. You'll be good now.
[01:06:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So now we come to Patrick's setup. So it's subtitles a few days later, Patrick can't afford. In the opening scene of Patrick, he can't afford a hotel, he can't afford food. He's sleeping in his car, and he actually bums half a sandwich from a country club employee.
[01:06:31] Speaker B: Okay, so this is one of my favorite scenes because he. The, like, he looks like the most starving infant ever. Like, he stares, like, at that bagel, like, like it's the most hot female he's ever seen. And he wants to devour it. And I'm just like. And that lady, she notices, and she's like, dude, I. I mean, white boy. I'll. I'll give you this. If. If you feel like you can't get your own food.
[01:06:59] Speaker A: Yep, yep.
[01:07:01] Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. I love that sequence too. Especially because it's. I love it because, you know, as. Since the story is kind of told out of order, it's really. Before we realize, like, he doesn't have to be starving.
[01:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:07:16] Speaker C: Like, he could be in the fanciest hotel in New Rochelle. So, like, he's just doing that, like, spoiled rich kid thing of, like, I'm gonna do it on my own.
[01:07:25] Speaker A: But I wonder. I wonder if there could be, like, an angle, though, where his parents, like, really don't want him to be playing tennis and so, like, this is his trade off. I don't know. Like, it is a possibility.
[01:07:34] Speaker C: It is. But usually wealthy parents want their. Their kids playing tennis.
[01:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Also, I think that one of the. I think that one of the interesting points of this is also is that we constantly are shown that he has. He does not care about his body. Like, he doesn't care about, like. Whereas you look at art.
[01:07:52] Speaker A: Art.
[01:07:52] Speaker B: Every. His food is all mapped out. Everything he does is careful. He's like, take. He gets massages and he's taping and all the things. Right. He doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke. He doesn't do any of these things. Right. And then we have. We have the guy who's just like, I have all this natural talent, so I just like it. I don't need to take care of myself. I'm just gonna treat myself and abuse myself. I don't have to work at this.
[01:08:14] Speaker C: He doesn't want it. He doesn't want it like Tashi and Art. He maybe does at. At the end, but I think he wants it for personal reasons, not for, like, you know, he's saying, it's like, I want to rank and go out, but he's really. He really just wants either or. Or both to get back with Tashi. And Art is probably his ultimate goal.
[01:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:08:34] Speaker C: Like, yeah, Art and Tashi, this is all they live and breathe for him. It's like, it's this thing that I do well.
[01:08:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:08:40] Speaker B: And this thing that he does well, that he has no respect for.
[01:08:43] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[01:08:44] Speaker A: It's. They think it's interesting because, like, there are different kinds of players too, though, I think. Like, I don't know much about tennis, but from what I was ever able to divine, it seemed like Patrick is a player who likes kind of like a big, showy thing once in a while, whereas Art is a player, like, at one point, Patrick says he's playing percentage tennis. Art is a player who's carefully strategizing. Does that sound right to you? Billy Ray is somebody who knows something about tennis?
[01:09:07] Speaker C: Absolutely. I would. I would say that, you know, you've got someone like Art, which I'm thinking in lines of like, you got a Roger Federer. Right. Or. Or someone like that who is so, like, calculating and. And has it all planned out and all laid out and knows what's going to happen, but then you've got someone. And the. The tennis player I compare Patrick to the most is Andre Agassi, because Agassi was someone. And I'm not suggesting that Agassi didn't want it. Lord knows he had an enormously successful career, but he went through so many ups and downs and so many phases and like. And there were times when you would see him on the court and you would question, like, does he even want to be there, or is he just doing this because it's what he does?
And I get the sense that. I don't know if Patrick was modeled after Agassi to some degree or not, but if that was the case, I would not be surprised.
[01:09:53] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah.
So what I love too, about Patrick is his costuming when he. He's playing tennis. He. Like his. His shorts. He's got these plaid shorts which almost look like boxer shorts, and then this tank top that, like, doesn't match at all. He looks like he's just going to play pickup basketball down the street, basically.
[01:10:11] Speaker C: He's dressed like 10 different guys I know dress on a regular basis.
[01:10:16] Speaker A: And we start out Watching a game between them here, Patrick is doing well against Art. Art is frustrated to the point where he swears and gets a code violation.
So, yeah, the game is starting well for Patrick, but will it continue?
So, yeah, now we have a flashback to art and Patrick 13 years earlier at match point. But in this game, they are playing doubles together. They are on the same side.
They're very friendly with each other, and when they win, they jump on each other, like, and apparently land on top.
[01:10:47] Speaker B: Of each other on court. Like, they'd be doing it on the. On the court there.
[01:10:51] Speaker A: And what I love is, apparently, they're known as fire and ice. And I believe Patrick is supposed to be fire and Art is supposed to be ice. What do you all think?
[01:10:59] Speaker C: Agreeably.
[01:11:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
So Art then expects that Patrick's going to win in their singles match the next day.
And then Patrick is the one who motivates them. Meeting Tashi Duncan, who he calls the hottest woman I've ever seen.
They watch her play her match, and at that point, Art is equally excited as Patrick, though Patrick is the one who gets so excited that he grabs Art's leg during the middle of the match.
And when Tashi wins her match, which she's playing very beautifully, she yells, okay, I'm gonna yell, so keep your ears away. Come on.
I don't know if I did it well enough, but she yells quite loud.
[01:11:37] Speaker C: Yep, that's her catchphrase.
[01:11:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that, though. That is very striking.
Any comments on this before we keep moving with this plot here?
[01:11:47] Speaker C: Well, I mean, my comment is that I.
I'm sort of obsessed with Art and Patrick's relationship because it is so fluid, and it is just like. I mean, they are like, their best friends, their brothers. They're rivals. Like, you get. You. You get so much texture out of this relationship in just the very, like, first, like, two minutes or minute of this scene. You get all of that information just from little actions. It's not being explicitly laid out, but it is so evident. And, like, the fact that you've even got Art, like, asking Patrick to, like, let him win.
[01:12:21] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[01:12:22] Speaker C: Like, can you let me win? I've got family coming. And it's like, I. Like, that relationship is just so fascinating to me. And anytime every time I watch this movie, I'm always. I always find myself more wrapped up in a particular relationship. And I watched this about two nights ago again for the upteen hundredth time, and that was the relationship I was most focused on. The whole film was Art Patrick.
[01:12:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:12:45] Speaker C: Because I feel like, their relationship is just as. I mean, just as crucial a relationship as Art and Tashi or Patrick. And like, that's what's so great about this film. And. But yeah, scene two, like, see, you know, clearly bisexual guys at least.
[01:13:03] Speaker A: Okay, at least Patrick I don't know about, but at least Patrick is definitely canon bisexual. I mean, unless he's just using the dude on his Tinder for, like a place to stay. But I think he is bisexual.
[01:13:13] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. I. I think he is bisexual. I. I think Art is too. I just think he is more guarded about it.
And. But just seeing these two guys who are so comfortable around each other and who have just this, like, natural chemistry and like. And just. I'm gonna. Following the ups and downs of that friendship. I'm getting too far ahead now. I could just. I'm gonna keep talking.
[01:13:33] Speaker A: To talk.
Yeah, yeah. No. One of my favorite scenes in the whole movie is with those two. And it comes later in our spoiler section, which.
[01:13:40] Speaker C: That. I know what it is.
[01:13:41] Speaker A: I bet you do too. It's a great scene.
I. I agree with you, Billy Ray. I find actually, I think their relationship, even though, like, I really like some of the other dynamics, I think their relationship is the most interesting in the movie.
[01:13:56] Speaker B: Their. Their relationship is the one that I care about and the one that I'm watching for. And like, I think that everybody else is only a foil to them.
[01:14:05] Speaker A: Interesting. Interesting.
[01:14:07] Speaker C: Nice. I like that. I like that.
[01:14:10] Speaker A: So they go to. After watching Tashi play, they go to a party where they know she is being celebrated. She has won. I think this is the Junior US Open. She won her category and they won the doubles.
Patrick at that party predicts what Tashi's potential future would be. Like, she's gonna have million, she's gonna be a millionaire, she's gonna have a foundation, etc.
[01:14:29] Speaker B: Etc.
[01:14:29] Speaker A: Etc. But it all boils down to him for that she's hot. And he says, I'd let her fuck me with a racket.
[01:14:36] Speaker B: But I think also what's interesting, this section here really sets a tone for These guys hunt together like. Like they do every. Like, they walk together in tandem. They drink each other's drinks. Like they are. They are. They are a pack of two. And you see it so fully right here at this party.
[01:14:56] Speaker C: Yeah, they are essentially a more reserved night at the Roxbury.
[01:15:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:15:03] Speaker B: That is exactly correct.
[01:15:07] Speaker C: Baby, don't hurt me no more But.
[01:15:11] Speaker B: I also think there's so much is shown. And one of the things I really loved about this script or the direction, whichever is whatever happened behind the scenes on this is that even small details, like every small detail tells you something about their relationship apart from each other and then together, like how Art will drink. You know, Art's not drinking alcohol per se, and you know, Patrick is. And Patrick's like, I'm gonna go get that chick. And Art's like, I'm gonna watch because that's my jam, right? Like, you learn so much about these two characters from this interaction with Art, with, with, with Tashi and trying to hunt Tashi.
[01:15:46] Speaker C: Let me tell you that like male friendships are so hard, hard. And I, I hate. Like, like I, I, look, I'm not that they're any easier for women, but like, like when I see like seeing the dynamics of this relationship where they're clearly, like, they clearly love each other, but they're clearly both jealous of one another.
Like, you know, you know, Art's jealous of Patrick because it just comes so easy to him and he doesn't have to work the way that Art does. And I think Patrick is jealous of Art because Art, you know, I think Art in his mind is like getting all of the things that he probably thinks he deserves, but yet he's not willing to work as hard as Art to get them. It's just this weird, circular, circuitous relationship. And I've been in relationships like this too, where you're, where you're, you know, you're close with somebody who, you can't imagine life without them, but they're also probably toxic as hell in that moment for you.
[01:16:44] Speaker B: I always got the impression that the, that Art is, Art is jealous of Patrick's like, coolness, his style, his like swagger. No. Why? His swagger. His. I don't give any fucks, right? His, his Riz, he's, he's so jealous of this. Whereas Patrick, his jealousy is this low key thing that we don't really, that you don't really notice. And you've watched this film a few times. Patrick is completely jealous of Art's family. He is a stable lifestyle that he has the love that he receives and the support that he gets.
[01:17:19] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think it's 100 because clearly he doesn't get that from his family. Right? Like he's not talking about his family coming to a tennis match. And I don't think it's that they don't want him to play tennis. I think it's that they just don't care.
[01:17:32] Speaker B: It's not his mom watching the kids. It's not his mom watching it, it's all very low key, but like Art's family is important and they love him and they take care of him and they are important to him as well.
Well, family, we don't see them at all.
[01:17:47] Speaker C: Well, it's like I'm trying to think of the name of. Because back when Andy Roddick was playing tennis and I mentioned him because as I mentioned, he is my husband and just doesn't know it yet.
There was another tennis player at that time named Marty Fish who was also a higher ranked tennis player. There's a really good documentary out about it. But he actually lived with Andy Roddick and his family for a good chunk of time while they were both on like the junior circuit together and a little bit higher. And it's like there's a lot of echoes in that, right. Where it's a situation where this one person didn't really have a family who could, you know, who could support them in that way. And so he just moved in with this other guy who had this amazing support system with his family for his tennis player. And it's very much the same thing with Art and Patrick, which, you know, I, I always. And they don't talk about this a ton, but like, how much time has Patrick spent at Arts, like just at Arts Place, right. Like staying with Art, living with Art, hanging. Like he probably essentially, probably just an extension of the family to some degree.
[01:18:49] Speaker B: That's how I very much feel. I feel so that strongly that that is the. What their relationship is. And there. And I don't know, like when you watch the film, there are so many like subtle moments that she show that that's it. Whereas when the first few times you watch it, you'll never catch it.
[01:19:03] Speaker C: Yeah. Patrick, honestly, Patrick is just looking for validation and love and appreciation. Yeah, I think that's what he's looking for. He's looking for somebody to give a damn about him.
[01:19:15] Speaker A: Yeah, repeatedly he's trying. And we'll get to this because it's more in the spoiler section, but repeatedly he is making plays to talk about the relationship rather than tennis, while the other person in the triangle is making it back about tennis again, which is very interesting to me. Yeah.
So now like, in addition to having a portrait of Art and Patrick, I would say there's arguably like a lot of sports movies have a scene where it's like the philosophy of this sport, you know, what is the essence of this sport. And I think we get this when Art and Patrick go to talk with Tashi on the beach. So I'm going to play a clip of that scene and we can listen to it and tell us what we think about it.
So I have to ask you about the Stanford thing. Okay.
What's the angle?
Why do you want to go beat up on a bunch of girls who.
[01:20:09] Speaker C: Are the best players at the high schools?
[01:20:17] Speaker A: We know they offer classes in college.
I don't want my only skill in life hitting a ball with a racket.
I get it.
[01:20:28] Speaker C: You're making us wait for you.
[01:20:32] Speaker A: The.
[01:20:32] Speaker C: 18 year old tennis phenomenon. Who cares about our education?
[01:20:37] Speaker A: Is this why you came to my party?
It's brilliant. Seriously can already see the Adidas campaign.
And when are you going pro?
[01:20:49] Speaker C: As soon as I can.
Hitting a ball with a racket is.
[01:20:53] Speaker A: A great way to avoid having a job.
Well, that's also your problem because you think that tennis is about expressing yourself, doing your thing.
That's why you still have that serve. It works.
Yeah, but you're not a tennis player.
You don't know do what to. Tennis is.
What is it?
It's a relationship.
Is that what you and Anna Mila had today?
It is actually about 15 seconds there we were actually playing tennis and we understood each other completely.
[01:21:34] Speaker B: So did everyone watching.
[01:21:36] Speaker A: It's like we were in love.
Or like we didn't exist.
We went somewhere really beautiful together. You screamed when he hit the winner.
Never heard anything like it before.
I should go when my dad comes looking for me.
I'll see you at school, Art. Wait, are you on Facebook? What? He's asking for your number.
And so am I.
You both want my number?
[01:22:29] Speaker B: Very much so.
[01:22:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Well, I'm not a home wrecker.
[01:22:33] Speaker C: We don't live together.
[01:22:34] Speaker A: It's an open relationship. Also, Patrick has a girlfriend. I do not. Hey, come hang out with us later. They put you up at the hotel in Flushing, right? We're in room 206. Want me to come tuck you in? No, we just keep talking about tennis.
Okay, so, yes.
I thought this scene was so important to understanding the entire rest of the movie. How about you guys agree this is.
[01:23:01] Speaker C: To me the foundational scene and this is sort of the moment in the movie where you understand the heart of what this movie is going to be getting at. And you also, in this very. And again, like I've said it before, I think this is just one of the best screenplays in recent memory because like, it is so, like razor sharp in the way that it is able in a not a very long scene to give you everything you need to know about how These three individuals see tennis and see themselves within tennis.
[01:23:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:23:31] Speaker C: And. And especially Tashi, like, you get this. You, you, You. This is where you figure out who Tashi is.
And in this scene, or at least where you really start figuring it out, Art, you get the insecurity. You get everything you need to know about Art. Patrick, you get the swagger. You get. You get the. You know, you get the confidence, but you also get the hurt that's buried in, like, it's just.
[01:23:54] Speaker B: It's.
[01:23:55] Speaker C: It's, like, brilliant the way it's laid out.
[01:23:57] Speaker A: Yeah. You see that Tashi's love for the game is very pure in this scene. You know, like, she wants to see tennis played well in a way that almost transcends reality, I think, is what I would say. Like she said for the.
[01:24:11] Speaker B: Her love for the game transcends actually all other love.
[01:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah. She's actually. There's one part it was like we were in love or like we didn't exist. We went somewhere really beautiful together. For her, like, tennis is the ultimate. It seems like. And like, Art seems to kind of grasp that, and I think that's where Art and Tashi connect.
Patrick is more grasping Tashi as a human, I think beyond the tennis, I don't. Would you agree or disagree with that?
[01:24:38] Speaker C: I would say that.
I would say there, everybody. I would say that Art.
I think Art thinks that tennis is his greatest love, but it's actually Tashi.
[01:24:51] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:24:51] Speaker C: I think Patrick, Art is his greatest love.
[01:24:55] Speaker A: Huh.
[01:24:56] Speaker C: And I think for Tashi, I don't think at any point does she ever pretend it's not tennis, like it is tennis for her. She might love Patrick, she might love Art, but she in no way loves them the way she loves the game.
[01:25:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:25:11] Speaker C: In my opinion, she is all about the game. And Art loves tennis. It's. It's what he's done his entire life. But I think.
But once he meets Tashi, that equation changes. I think then it becomes more. My life is more about this person, especially when she's injured, because then it becomes about that person. But through tennis. He's playing tennis, but he's doing it for her because she can't.
[01:25:36] Speaker B: I don't think Art loves tennis.
[01:25:38] Speaker C: I don't either.
[01:25:39] Speaker A: Okay.
But what I was saying with the tennis is, though, that when they're talking to Tashi, Art is the one who specifically talks about her tennis. Like, both while we're watching the game and while they're talking to her, Art is bringing it to the tennis, and Patrick is bringing it to granted it's rather shallow, but Patrick's bringing it to how hot she is, like, how much he wants to be with her. So that's interesting.
[01:25:59] Speaker B: Patrick. Patrick's. Patrick is talking about how he wants to get in bed with her. Right. And Art is talking. Is trying to meet her as, like, somebody who's, like, on the same level and understands her.
[01:26:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:26:10] Speaker C: Because he understands that she's not going to fall for Patrick's bullshit. Like, she is way too smart to fall for Patrick. And so I think Art is taking a very different tact. And I think it is a genuine tact. Like, I think he's being genuine in that moment and, like, is really fascinated by her. And Patrick doesn't give a. Because he's got nothing to lose. If tennis doesn't work out, he'll go work for his dad and make a ton of money doing that. Like, he doesn't have anything to lose.
[01:26:36] Speaker A: Yeah. But I think. I think Tashi falls for Patrick. And Patrick falls for Tashi too, though. And we'll get to that more. I think we get.
[01:26:42] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[01:26:43] Speaker A: Scenes between them, but. Yeah. I don't know if Patrick starts from the deepest place, but I think he gets to a deeper place with how he feels about.
[01:26:49] Speaker C: He's deeper than he seems.
[01:26:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:26:52] Speaker C: A lot of it is just bravado and, like, artifice. But, like, there's a lot of. There's a lot of, like, you know, he is actually far more driven than you would think on the surface, I think. I think he is far more sensitive than you would think on the surface. Like, he's all of these things. He's just putting on a really good show.
[01:27:08] Speaker A: One thing I love about the scene too, is the music. Like this sort of haunting music that is in this section. And that cue will come up again later in the movie. But it's so evocative. Like, all the music in this movie is so evocative and it's so different from each other as well. Like, everyone thinks of the techno when they think of this movie, but all the score pieces are amazing to me.
Setting it by the water at night, too.
[01:27:34] Speaker C: I love Beautiful scene also.
[01:27:37] Speaker B: Like, I think she's sitting like a little mermaid.
[01:27:38] Speaker A: Just, you know. Yes, I saw that too. Yes.
[01:27:42] Speaker B: I'm like. I've watched it so many times. I'm like, I could be crazy. But I really do think it's supposed to be. She's supposed to be like this. This person like this. She's a siren, right? She's a siren. That's exactly where I was going, jen. I was like, she's supposed to be a person, but she's a siren.
[01:27:56] Speaker A: Nice.
I like it. Maybe she'll play a siren in the Odyssey. Sorry.
[01:28:02] Speaker C: Possible.
[01:28:05] Speaker A: All right, we're about to now enter into the spoiler section of the podcast. So if you have not seen Challengers and you do not want to be spoiled, this is your cue to get off of the podcast recording and go find it on streaming and gtfo.
That's right. Unless you don't care about spoilers, which some people don't.
So now I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, we're doing a sports rom com series. I wanted to talk about a little bit about the tropes of sports movies in general and kind of ways that we think this movie does or does not fit in with those tropes.
So I have some of my own ideas, but I thought I'd throw it open to you guys first.
[01:28:44] Speaker B: I don't think this actually fits in, like, many of the, like, some of the tropes, because it's a sports movie, but, like, so few of them fit.
We do a part of the very end of this where we do matchy movies kind of things, you know, that you'd watch with this. And I had such a hard time finding something that I would, like, say, I'm gonna watch Challengers because kind of Challenger stands on its own for me as a sports movie.
[01:29:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm sort of. I'm sort of in your camp with.
It was really tough for me to come up with some double feature pairings, and one of them that I came up with, I feel like, is a little generic because, like you said, it really doesn't. And it's not that it doesn't have any of the tropes. It's just the way the film is structured kind of subverts those tropes.
[01:29:30] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:29:31] Speaker C: And that's sort of what I love about this film. And so, yeah, I would certainly not say it is your traditional sports movie in any way, shape or form. It's not bad. You know, it is building to a climax like most sports movies are. It's just doing it in a very circuitous way.
[01:29:46] Speaker B: Also, I think because our female character is such a powerful character and integral, and it. Instead of most movies that are sports movies that have, like, let's be real, like, dudes in them, the woman, the female character is just like a love interest kind of off to the side.
[01:30:00] Speaker C: Oh, sure, right. They're Susan Sarandon and Bull Durham.
[01:30:03] Speaker B: Right. Like all of them, but like this one, not the case at all. She is. She is leading the. Leading the charge in this film. She is such a powerhouse, and she's.
[01:30:13] Speaker C: Got, as she says, her two little white boys.
[01:30:16] Speaker A: That's right.
I did so I did kind of like, just look at sports movies tropes one by one and just try to, like, look through them. So one of them, of course, is the trope of the underdog. And I think that's an interesting trope in this movie, because I would call, you know, Patrick at the beginning of the movie is the underdog. But as you guys have pointed out previously, he also has. He comes from wealth. You know, he was kind of raised to tennis. So he's also not an underdog. There's a way in which the beginning of the movie, Zendaya's character could even be the underdog. Like Tasha could be the underdog because she's not at the rich sports academy.
[01:30:51] Speaker B: I don't think any of them are underdogs because they're all. They all are so good at what they do. And they're all, you know, from the beginning that they're all supposed to be stars. They're all going to be powerhouses that, you know, Zendaya's character Tashi doesn't get. That is, like, one of the biggest, you know, problems of. For her. But, like, if she hadn't had an injury, as you said before, while we're talking, she would be, you know, she'd be Serena Williams. Right.
[01:31:17] Speaker C: I would argue that Tashi is never an underdog.
I would actually argue that Art is the underdog at the beginning of the film, because he's clearly, at that point, not as good of a tennis player as Patrick, to the point where he's even asking Patrick, hey, can you maybe let me win this? Because my family's gonna be here.
[01:31:38] Speaker A: Okay, so you're not talking at beginning the movie where I see Patrick broke. You're talking at the beginning of the chronology when we see that.
[01:31:44] Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm saying more at the beginning of the chronology, where. When they're younger, I think Art is definitely the underdog because of that. But also, he's not as confident around women as Patrick is. Or, you know, if he is, he's confident in his own way. It's certainly not the way Patrick is. But by the time the chronology ends, you know, I would say that. I mean that what's weird is, is Art goes from being the underdog chronologically to not being the underdog, back to being the underdog. Again, that's an interesting journey for that character.
[01:32:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Or he's the comeback trope. Like the player making a comeback, which, like, either of Patrick or Art could be thought of as, like, somebody making a comeback, too, I guess. Yeah.
[01:32:26] Speaker B: And again, I don't think any of them have the comeback thing going either, because, like, yes, Art is trying to get, like, his mojo back or whatever, but that's not even what the movie is about. The movie's not like he's trying to come up from being crappy. No, that's. That's not what we're leaning on at all level.
[01:32:42] Speaker A: On one level it is, though. I don't know. It's like parallel plots. Like, there's the. The sports story and there's a relationship story, so.
[01:32:49] Speaker C: Well, I think we're talking about inches instead of miles here. Like, you look at something like Rudy, and Rudy is a film about a kid with very minimal football talent making it onto the Notre Dame football team.
And so he's got a long way to go here.
Even when Art is an underdog against, like, we're talking about really minute, like, differences in talent compared to something like Rudy compared to something like the Mighty Ducks.
[01:33:18] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:33:18] Speaker C: Or the sandlot. Right.
[01:33:19] Speaker B: Like.
[01:33:19] Speaker C: Or not even the sandlot. That's not even a good example. But, like, you know, Patrick may have the advantage on Art, but it's a. It's a minimal advantage.
[01:33:28] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, but.
[01:33:29] Speaker B: And does anybody else think of that? Like, nobody's looking at Art being like, that dude's going to the challengers as an underdog.
[01:33:34] Speaker C: He's the number one tennis player in the world at that point.
[01:33:37] Speaker B: Correct. Like, he's gonna come in, like, wipe the floor. Floor with people. That's what they're expecting.
[01:33:41] Speaker A: Well, yeah, that's why. That's why I think in that part of the story, for me, Patrick's the underdog in that part of the story where we see him, like, roll into the hotel. He can't even afford the hotel. The guys behind him saying he looks like a handsome hobo.
[01:33:54] Speaker C: I think he's the underdog until the moment he and Art start playing. Because I think Patrick is very aware that he can manipulate Art and hit those emotional buttons. I don't think Patrick goes into that game thinking he's not going to win 100%.
He knows he's going to.
[01:34:13] Speaker B: Thinks he's not going to win. No, that is not.
[01:34:14] Speaker C: Especially against Art. Yeah, especially against Art, who he can play like a fiddle.
[01:34:20] Speaker A: All right, so one of those instances of Playing Art like a fiddle is. I saw one of the tropes of a sports movie could be, like a special play or a trick play. And I would argue that the tennis ball in the neck of the racket is basically the equivalent of Patrick's trick play.
[01:34:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I can't argue with that. I mean, that, to me, is one of the great moments in recent cinema.
And not just because.
Not much because of the callback and for what it means in that moment, but what it produces. Like, the moment that it directly influences and produces. I just think that is such an ingenious touch. And I would agree that is his trick play. Like, that is his way of absolutely getting under Art skin and making sure that he throws him off his balance.
[01:35:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And for the listeners, just if you need a reminder, the putting. When they were teenagers, Art got him to, like, tell him that he. Art got Patrick to tell him that he had fucked Tashi by signaling. By putting a ball in the middle of the center of the neck of the rack.
[01:35:27] Speaker C: It.
[01:35:27] Speaker A: And then when we see this in the final game, like in the final moments of the movie, Patrick deliberately slows way down before serving. He makes it so obvious that you should watch what he's doing so he can show Art what he's doing. And he really deliberately puts that ball in that spot to be like, I fucked your wife.
[01:35:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:35:48] Speaker B: The conversation. That whole section is one of the best pieces. Like, you said it right. Payoff. There's so much payoff. And you know when. If you're watching, if you're a movie person, you know when that scene happens the first time that we are going to have a callback to the scene. You absolutely know it.
[01:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:36:02] Speaker B: And yet I'm. I was still, like, so, like, on the edge of my seat of when it was going to happen.
[01:36:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Let's see. I'm going to see if I wrote down any other tropes here that I wanted to look at. So some other tropes. Like, there's the inspirational speech trope from a coach. And Zendaya really subverts that one pretty.
[01:36:21] Speaker B: Well as she gives the un. Like, go ahead and leave this man. I'm going to le. Leave you.
[01:36:25] Speaker A: Whatever.
[01:36:27] Speaker C: Yeah, there. There aren't any, like, big, like, all of the speeches in this movie are.
[01:36:34] Speaker A: Are.
[01:36:34] Speaker C: Are nothing except emotional and psychological warfare. And like, I think about my favorite scene in the film, which is them in the sauna.
[01:36:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:36:43] Speaker C: Which is just one of the best, like, like, wickedly funny, like, battle scenes I've seen in a movie.
[01:36:49] Speaker B: Absolutely.
One of the things I thought about a lot when I watched this is I read a lot of romance novels, and one of the things that. That happens in a romance novel, if it has sex in it, is that the point of, like, good sex scenes are put there to show you something about the characters, to move the plot forward and to give you insight intimately on these people, not just to, like, have, as the cool kids say these days, smut. Okay. Like, a good scene does that. And I found that for me, all the tennis scenes do that in this movie.
[01:37:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:37:24] Speaker C: I mean. I mean, tennis in this movie is. Is ob. Is honestly just sort of like a replacement for sex.
That's all it is. They're having sex on screen. They're just using a racket and balls.
[01:37:35] Speaker B: Yep, yep.
[01:37:38] Speaker A: So. And then the final trope, which I do think the movie plays into a little bit, is having a tiebreaker. Like, that is like, you know, one of those things that's meant to cause you, like. Like, oh, my God, who's gonna win? And I don't know if it causes you the same kind of emotion that you see in a regular sports film. I don't know if it really matters who wins. We don't even find out necessarily definitively who wins in this game. But that's right, Right. Billy Ray, everywhere I read, it says that we don't know who's gonna win.
[01:38:02] Speaker B: Because we don't. And that's the beauty of it.
[01:38:05] Speaker C: Yeah. Because it. It doesn't really. And that's. That's the joy of it is like, you don't care.
[01:38:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:38:10] Speaker C: It's like, it doesn't matter. Like, I left that film. I didn't even think twice about the fact that I didn't know who won. I was just happy that Art and Patrick were back together.
[01:38:18] Speaker A: Right.
[01:38:19] Speaker B: Right. And one of the things I thought was really interesting is I. I can tell a person who watched this movie who didn't get this movie when they're like, but who won? I'm like, they all won.
[01:38:32] Speaker C: You missed the point. Like, they won because they're back together. Tashi won because now she's got her two favorite guys back together, and who knows who she'll end up with long term? It probably won't be either of them.
[01:38:43] Speaker B: True. Like, they could all, like. Like, you could come from a point of, like, they all lost. Like, for real, but in their minds, they all won.
[01:38:52] Speaker C: Yeah. Absolutely.
[01:38:53] Speaker A: All right. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get to what. I think we'll get to what each of us thinks happens with these relationships at the end later in the podcast. But yeah, just I wanted to do a little bit about sports movies. I think we figured out, like, there's some superficial ways that it matches on to these tropes, but it mostly subverts them. Would. Would everybody agree with that?
[01:39:11] Speaker C: I would say so, yeah.
[01:39:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So then we already talked a little bit about how tennis is kind of used in the movie, practically the three set structure of the game, the three act structure of a narrative. Billy Ray's got it down to games apparently too.
[01:39:27] Speaker C: Oh yeah. Fun and games.
[01:39:30] Speaker A: So Sybil, then just something about how tennis relates to the movie and the, the narrative. There's. You were talking about how that tennis is substituting in for sex scenes.
So Karitskis told Variety magazine, tennis is about being all alone and being at a distance from somebody and trying not to touch them, trying to just miss them and trying to trick them, trying to make them think the ball is going to go one place and then go another place. There's a deep intimacy and a deep eroticism in that and also a lot of repression. To me, that's almost like a Victorian romance. It's very sexy.
So tennis of its nature is erotic and you usually play tennis against somebody of the same gender. So tennis by its nature then becomes almost homoerotic. So that's an interesting way to put it. Yeah, yeah.
[01:40:19] Speaker C: And you can tell that the person who wrote that movie definitely believed that.
[01:40:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:40:25] Speaker A: I just wanted to unpack just a little bit too then about the various meanings of the title Challengers.
[01:40:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think there's like the on the nose meaning where it's like a challenger is sort of like, you know, it's one of these like tournaments that you're playing before you get into the big match. I think obviously it refers to Art and Patrick.
I, I think that's another on the nose way to think of it. I'll be curious to what y' all think about that.
[01:40:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I agree with those two that you mentioned already. I think for me too, like, like I. One of the lenses I look at this movie through is they are challenging each other interpersonally all the time. And like the heat in the relationship often has to do with who can challenge who like to be their best and to. To look at themselves truthfully. So that's. That's one of the lenses through which I looked at it too, 100%.
[01:41:21] Speaker B: Like, that's how like, emotionally they have. They have to challenge each other to continue to grow and change.
[01:41:29] Speaker C: Well, I mean the. One of the definitions of a challenger is a person who disputes the truth of, or places themselves in opposition to something which is perfect for this movie.
[01:41:38] Speaker A: Yep.
Nice. We, we figured it all out. I like it.
[01:41:43] Speaker C: We got it.
[01:41:45] Speaker A: All right, so let's, I guess we can move on to the scene that became sort of the viral scene in the movie, which is the hotel three way kissing scene.
[01:41:55] Speaker B: I think it's interesting that this scene is the scene that like, that like, I think got people into theaters and yet at the end of the day it's a great scene. But it's not the scene that I cared nearly as much about.
[01:42:06] Speaker C: No, not, not at all. I mean it's. I love this scene and the. I like this scene for very different reasons than a lot of other people. Because, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't a high level sports player at all, but I did play sports. And one of the most fun things about playing sports are the hotel rooms. Especially when you're a kid. When you're younger, like you kind of grow up in hotel rooms and you have all of these adventures and you like room hop and like there's so many fun things you do there. And so it was really nice to see a film include that in that sort of journey, which is like, that's right at the end of the day. These are just kids and like, and, and that to me, that to me is sort of what this scene feels like. Is these kids just experimenting with each other.
[01:42:51] Speaker A: Yeah, this. Yeah. So the scene to set it up really quick, Tashi has gone to their hotel room where they've invited her after the party where they were all talking on the beach. And she shows up and it is the grottiest looking hotel room before she gets in there. And they're like a freaking hostel.
[01:43:07] Speaker B: It looks like a hostel.
[01:43:08] Speaker C: It's so you can smell it.
[01:43:10] Speaker B: You can smell it.
[01:43:11] Speaker C: You have to smell the musk.
[01:43:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
And like Art's there like picking at his foot or something. Like when she got.
[01:43:19] Speaker B: Air conditioner is broken, it's got trash and like dirty laundry everywhere. They probably haven't showered. They're all nasty.
[01:43:27] Speaker A: Yep.
But she comes and sits on the floor and she's talking to them and kind of like she really. She puts it out there right away too. She's like, she is not afraid to be direct with them. And like, you guys often like the same girl. And how about you two? Have you been together? And at this point of speaking of.
[01:43:45] Speaker B: Her sitting on the floor, I was in a pretty I was in a pretty packed movie theater and I. When she sits on the floor, some girl. I heard some girls like, girl, no. Like that.
I laughed so hard because I couldn't tell. She said girl, no. About, like, oh, no, she's sitting in for this. Or like, she's getting on the nastiest carpet known to man. I couldn't tell, but I laughed so hard.
[01:44:06] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny in this scene, too, because you almost get the sense that Tashi is sort of figuring out what are the levels at which I can control these guys.
[01:44:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:44:18] Speaker C: Like what? Like, what are they going to be willing to do for me? And she's almost like a puppet master in this scene, or it's the first where you. I mean, you've get. You've seen it before this. You've seen her sort of orchestrate things. This is where you first see the sort of beginnings of that, where she's just like, okay, I'm gonna control these guys.
[01:44:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:44:38] Speaker C: And I. And she can, because she's a gorgeous girl. And most gorgeous girls, especially at that age, can control just about any guy.
[01:44:45] Speaker B: And not even that she's a gorgeous girl. She is the top confidence game. Yeah, right. She's confident. And let's be honest, most girls at that age are not as confident as Tashi is either. They might be, like, pretending, but, like, she is confident. She dominates on the court. She doesn't know anything but domination.
[01:45:04] Speaker A: So one thing that's important to know is the kiss between Patrick and Art that Tashi kind of masterminds by, like, first kissing them both at the same time and then kind of backing away and letting them kiss each other instead. That was not in the original screenplay. That is a Guadagnino ad. Guadagnino told Karitzkis that all points of the triangle must touch. And then Karitskis said, oh, and then I realized he meant literally, so.
[01:45:30] Speaker C: Yeah, but that's such a smart move. Like, I think that scene is so pivotal to Art and Patrick's relationship.
And.
And so I think that was a. He called an audible there to throw in another sports term. And I think that was a great one. I think that just enhances the script as it was.
[01:45:48] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, Yeah. I can't imagine the script without some of the things Guadagnino added to it. Really.
So. Yeah. I don't know. I imagine the masturbation story might have been in there already, though. So that's another instance of, like, when Tashi asked if they've been together, Patrick responds by talking about how he taught Art how to masturbate by just showing him how to do it from across the room. And Art is very careful to be like, no, he just. We were across the room. He just showed me. No. No funny business.
[01:46:17] Speaker C: That just takes me, like. That just takes. Takes me back to, like, when I was younger and in school and, like, you know. You know, I was gay at a very young age, but, like, all of my friends growing up were straight guys because I grew up in Alabama. And just, like, all of the experimenting that happened with, like, guys that were, you know, they didn't really have a gay bone in their body. They were just experimenting like you do at that age. And, yes, sometimes that involves masturbation, and sometimes it involves kissing a minute or two longer than you think you should.
And that's. That's like, that, to me, that whole. That's why I love that hotel room so much, because that. That hotel room so much, to me, encapsulates what it means to be young.
[01:47:01] Speaker A: Other things about the scene. One of my favorite, like, comic beats is, like, when Tashi goes and sits on the bed and. And she's like, come here. And, like, Art says, which one? But Patrick's already up running towards the bed.
[01:47:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:47:15] Speaker A: It's like, I'm not gonna wait to find out. I'm just going, well.
[01:47:18] Speaker B: And I think you learned so much about Art and Patrick from. You probably learn a lot also from Tashi, but I think you learn far more from Art and Patrick here. Because, you know, Patrick in this scene is like.
He's. He's so much about, like, I know what's happening. I'm cool. I'm super cool to have sex with my friend, too. It's cool. As long as we both have you. I'm fine with that.
[01:47:41] Speaker A: That.
[01:47:42] Speaker B: Whereas Art's like, I don't actually know if I want that. Like, I don't know if I'm into that. Like, But I guess if she's here, that's okay, right? He's so much more hesitant about it. Whereas Patrick, the whole time is like, dude, we're gonna have sex one day. Don't worry about it. All right.
[01:47:59] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's. And that's fair. And it's like. And that's the interesting thing. Like, once they start kissing and they just keep going, and they keep going, and it's like. Like, do I think art, you know? Yes. I think I've already said I think Patrick is bisexual. Art. Do I think art is bisexual? Maybe, maybe not. I. I just think it's one of those things, like, I don't know when you've been best friends with a hot guy for that long with so much confidence. And he's taught, like, he's kind of like, even though you're basically the same age, he's like a big brother. Figured you and all this stuff, and you get the chance to, like, do what you've heard. Heard about all these girls doing for all these years. You're probably like, okay, let's rock it.
[01:48:39] Speaker B: Yeah. I think art. I think art can be fluid for Patrick. I don't know if he would be fluid for that Many other men.
[01:48:43] Speaker C: Agree.
[01:48:44] Speaker B: I think he's like. He's like. He also. He holds Patrick up on this pedestal. Right. And so, yes, maybe it's a big brother kind of situation, but I think it's more also, he. He really does look at Patrick as like, this is the guy that I wish I was. Is more like, in many ways, that doesn't make him less like himself, you know, but he just looks at Patrick and looks at things that Patrick can do and is like, I wish I had that. Like, Ritz. I wish I was that swag. Right. I wish I had that.
[01:49:13] Speaker C: And they complete each other in a lot of ways.
[01:49:15] Speaker B: Right.
[01:49:16] Speaker C: They're each what the other isn't.
[01:49:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Which also makes it a great throuple, I just gotta say.
[01:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah, they're great thruffle. They're such a good trouble.
[01:49:24] Speaker A: Anyway, so we also get. We also get a great visual parallel here, which we'll see at the end of the movie when Tashi lays back and lets the two of them kiss. We. We see her laying back on the bed smiling, and then we see her view of them kissing. And it's very much like at the end of the movie where we see her and then the guys on a split screen on either side of the tennis court playing tennis. And she's watching from the exact center of the tennis court the whole time they're playing too. So Tashi likes to watch.
[01:49:53] Speaker C: She's a watcher to watch.
[01:49:54] Speaker B: Yes, she does.
[01:49:57] Speaker A: And she abruptly leaves after they start kissing at each other for a while. She says, I will be watching your match tomorrow. Whoever wins can have my number. She tries to encourage Art to play hard. And then. And then they're like, it's because you want me to win. And she's like, I want to watch some good tennis.
[01:50:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:50:15] Speaker B: Because again, she doesn't care who wins.
[01:50:17] Speaker C: It's the game.
[01:50:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure. She seems Almost disappointed when Patrick wins. But I wonder if that's just because she doesn't want Patrick to be too cocky, like, she's trying to manage him. You know what I mean?
It's hard for me to tell.
[01:50:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:50:33] Speaker C: No, I agree. I do think. I do think it registers as a little bit of disappointment when. When he wins, I. I definitely get. Register that as well. But I, like, you think it's just more like, okay, like, this guy's so full of himself, and he just. You know, I do think it's more of that than anything else, but, you know, or maybe there's a part of.
[01:50:52] Speaker B: Her that really wanted to, like, have sex with Art mode more because, like, she did see more of, like, a realistic person in him, like somebody she could. She could get behind. Whereas Patrick, she's. He's some guy in her mind that she's just gonna have sex with.
[01:51:04] Speaker C: But I think she also probably knows that, like, I. I. I do think. I think art. I think art because Art is more curious, and he's more inquisitive, and it's like, she knows she can Patrick anytime she wants to. All she's got to do is be like, hey, you. He's gonna do it anywhere she wants, whenever she wants. Right. I feel like. And not that I think it would take a lot of work with Art, but I think it would take a little more work.
[01:51:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:51:29] Speaker A: See, my theory is that Patrick scares her more. Honestly, I think she cares. I think she actually is slightly more into Patrick, but that scares her because she. He can't be. We find out later, he can't be controlled by her in the same way. So, I mean. Yeah, I don't know. We'll. We'll keep going. We'll keep going because we got a lot to cover.
Okay, we're coming in back into the present day. Patrick is winning at the moment. In the present day, we are kind of deliberately shown the difference between Patrick's pathetic setup of what he has between on the break from the game and what Art's got going on. What is that thing he's got on his back, by the way? Does anyone know, like, what it is? Yeah, what is that?
[01:52:06] Speaker B: That kinesiology tape. So kinesiology tape helps you when your, like, muscles are sore and helps you.
[01:52:12] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:52:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Helps you, like, perform better.
[01:52:15] Speaker A: He's got all this fancy. And, like, Patrick's got, like, I don't know, like, a banana or something. I mean, the bananas. The bananas later. But, yeah.
[01:52:24] Speaker B: He'S a banana. All right.
[01:52:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:52:27] Speaker A: So let's see, we have this scene now. It says set break. And we see Patrick in the locker room full of sweaty, wet, naked men. And he, One of the guys, he just beets. Is getting really upset that he just got beaten by Patrick. And Patrick is, like, looking through Tinder. We later find out he's doing this so he can find a place to sleep for the night.
[01:52:48] Speaker B: Yeah, right. One of the things I liked about this scene, period, is like, if this. This was shot as if it was a female locker room scene.
[01:52:56] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[01:52:57] Speaker B: Right. There are dicks out everywhere.
Right. If this was. If this was a female locker room scene, there'd be boobs everywhere for no particularly good. Good reason, but.
[01:53:06] Speaker A: Except it's way more committed to reality than a female locker room scene, which also have, like, soft music and, like, blurry fog and, like.
[01:53:15] Speaker C: Well, Guadagnino has one of the best male gazes in all of cinema right now.
[01:53:21] Speaker B: Yeah, he certainly does.
[01:53:22] Speaker C: You look at any of his films, like, he knows how to shoot, like, guys around this age. Like. And, you know, maybe it's from, you know, I. I. From being an older gay man. I don't know.
But, like, he certainly knows how to do it.
[01:53:37] Speaker B: Yep. So there's just like, a lot of. There's just, like. I remember when this scene came on the screen, I was like, wow, there's a lot of. On that screen right now.
Just a lot of it. And then some of us.
[01:53:47] Speaker C: Wow.
Some of us might think there's not.
[01:53:49] Speaker B: Enough possibly, but, like, for film. For film, right? There's a lot. Because usually for what we're used to.
[01:53:57] Speaker A: For what we're used to, Right.
[01:53:58] Speaker B: Usually we get, like, one dick frontal. We're like, oh, my goodness. Clutching my pearls. Right. And I was like, wow, that's just everywhere. And it's just secondary.
[01:54:05] Speaker A: It's not important.
[01:54:06] Speaker B: It's secondary.
They're just around.
[01:54:09] Speaker A: It's casual dick y. Yeah.
[01:54:11] Speaker B: Because dudes in locker rooms are naked and they don't give a.
[01:54:15] Speaker A: Anyway, we also get.
Yeah, he's scrolling through Tinder and there's at least one guy, so. Yep, that's our. One of our signals about Patrick.
[01:54:23] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. He doesn't care as long as it gets him what he needs.
[01:54:26] Speaker A: Yeah, this is. That's really the sleaziest aspect of Patrick for me. This, like, date he goes on with his lady just so he has a place to stay.
[01:54:34] Speaker B: And then really bad for that lady, because me too. Listen, she clearly is not important. And listen, I've had sex with people to have a Place to stay at night. I've been Patrick and at least made an effort to make that person I was with feel very important.
[01:54:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Patrick just, like, sees Tashi and immediately makes a beeline away from this lady and then doesn't even make an excuse when he comes back and just starts mauling her with his mouth. So.
[01:54:59] Speaker B: Right. He's like, I guess I just need a room. It'd be easier if she. He was just like, listen, I'm gonna pleasure you. Just give me a bed. Okay.
[01:55:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Probably wouldn't work, though.
I don't know. People like an illusion, even if it's obviously an illusion.
[01:55:11] Speaker C: You know, they want to live the fantasy.
[01:55:15] Speaker A: So let's see. Yeah. And then he does. He does talk to Tashi.
He seems really eager to see her, and she is not happy to see him at the moment. She said, art can't see us together. He already thinks I planned this to humiliate him. Patrick says, didn't you? She says, not this part.
[01:55:33] Speaker C: Yeah, okay.
[01:55:34] Speaker B: Which. So I watched this again last night, and I was like, okay, I think.
I think you're absolutely correct when you say that Tashi planned this from the very beginning. I'm on the side of that now because he knew that she planned it. And she's like, well, not this particular section right here. But yeah, no, I planned to get. Get you here for sure. You're right. Where you're supposed to be with Art.
[01:55:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:55:52] Speaker C: No, absolutely. No, I think she did. I think she. I again, I think she's the puppet master of this. She knows exactly what she's doing. She is always a step ahead of these boys who always.
[01:56:04] Speaker A: And.
[01:56:04] Speaker C: And that, to me, is what's. So. What's so fascinating because it's like. It. It's. It's nice to me watching, like, an intelligent, strong, confident woman get exactly what she wants.
[01:56:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yep. You're right, Miller.
[01:56:20] Speaker A: All right, we're gonna go to 13 years earlier. Now, this is where we find out about the signal for whether Patrick and Tashi had sex.
We just get this little moment between Patrick and Art on a tennis court. And this is where we see Art spitting his gum into Patrick's hand before they play, just like he does later with Tashi. It's. It's. It's adorable. There's so many parallels.
[01:56:45] Speaker C: It's quite adorable.
[01:56:47] Speaker A: This movie is just full of visual parallels and actually line parallels too. It's kind of awesome. And. Yeah. And then set two opens with Patrick eating the banana, which my husband Just walked into the room while that was happening the other day, and he laughed his ass off because this movie's just so phallic everywhere.
[01:57:03] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:57:04] Speaker B: Also the amount of eye contact while eating the banana.
[01:57:07] Speaker A: Yes.
Yeah.
I'm gonna eat the. Out of this banana. Okay. And then. Yeah. And then we're in 12 years earlier, and we see segments of each of the pieces of the triangle together here.
So Tashi and Art are eating together. Art's trying to sabotage the relationship, basically by implying that Patrick doesn't care about her.
She's wearing the I told you shirt here, which we'll see later.
And she tells Art that she doesn't care if Patrick's in love with her. She's putting up a big, good front. And then we get to the churro scene where.
[01:57:44] Speaker C: Art.
[01:57:44] Speaker A: Scene where Art's trying to tell Patrick that he doesn't think Tashi feels very strongly about him after he finds out that Patrick is actually staying faithful to Tashi. So. Yeah. Anything anybody wants to say about any of that?
[01:57:56] Speaker C: Yeah. What I love about this scene is that you have, like, at no point does Patrick not realize exactly what Art is trying to do. Like, it's on his face the whole time, and he's not mad about it at all. He's smiling. He's almost. I mean, he even says that he's proud of him. He says that he's proud of him for kind of taking that initiative. And it's all over his face when he's doing it. He knows exactly what's happening, exactly what he's trying to do, and yet Art kind of makes it happen.
[01:58:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:58:26] Speaker B: He calls, he says, you snake. Right?
[01:58:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:58:29] Speaker B: He's, like, happy about it. And then the both of them. The way they eat their churros is so incredibly important. And there's, like, just, like. There's just sugar everywhere. And it's just, like. Just, like, all over his face. He puts it all over. Oh, my goodness.
[01:58:41] Speaker A: There's just so much.
[01:58:42] Speaker B: So much eroticism here with a churro.
[01:58:44] Speaker A: And they're biting each other's churros.
[01:58:46] Speaker B: Importantly. Yes. Yes.
There's so much subtext in this. So much churro eating subtext mixed so much.
[01:58:54] Speaker C: I don't know that a churro has ever had such an important part to play in a movie.
[01:58:59] Speaker B: No. And the wake one. And, you know, like, one of the things that he does is he, you know, he focuses in on little mo. Like, little, like, moments. Right. So, like, I'll be, like, pulling, like, Patrick pulling the chair closer, like those little moments for me are so important as you continue to. As you continue to watch the film over and over again. The first time you watch it, you're like. Like, oh. Like you feel like you're like, oh, I'm looking at this thing. But you're like, oh, that's a. This is a point. This is a beat. This is important.
Right?
[01:59:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:59:28] Speaker B: What. What we're seeing. And it seems so silly sometimes. It's like holding onto sunglasses. Right. But no, it's what's going to happen to those sunglasses next. It's what's going to happen to these twos after. It's all important. And it's so interesting to me.
[01:59:40] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. I don't have anything to add to that. Yep.
[01:59:44] Speaker C: Well said.
[01:59:46] Speaker A: So let's see. Yeah. And then we get Tashi and Patrick now together in the dorm. Patrick's come to see her after being on tour, playing tennis professionally for a while. Tashi and Art are at Stanford. I forgot to mention that. And they're in the dorm and they're like, making out, getting ready to have sex.
And then Tashi wants to talk about Patrick's tennis instead of talking about their relationship or just merely making out.
And that's what she needs.
[02:00:15] Speaker B: She needs more foreplay. This tennis for her is foreplay. She needs to talk about something. She needs to get. She needs foreplay. And I don't think Patrick ever really understood that. Neither did Art. That like talking about that tennis being that tennis is foreplay to her.
[02:00:29] Speaker A: Okay, I disagree with you here. Okay, this is what I think about this scene. I think Tashi is already in love with Patrick when she sits down with Art. And Art tells her that in implies that Patrick doesn't care about her. I think Tashi here in this dorm room scene is actually trying to push Patrick away before she gets hurt. I really feel like that's the subtext of this scene. And Patrick mostly doesn't believe what Art's saying, but enough of a seed has been planted in him that he is also now a little bit insecure and he's also going to be too stubborn. Because when you see Tasha importantly at the end of this scene when Tashi basically lets Patrick walk out, there's this look on her face that's saying, I want to call after him, but I'm too fucking proud to do it. That, like, I feel like they're in love and they just imploded. That's my feeling.
[02:01:17] Speaker C: I actually agree with you 100 on that point. I. I also think that she is trying to do Damage control before the damage happens. And I don't even know, Like, I don't even know if the revelation, though, came from arc art. Like, I think she's probably always had this in the back of her head, just knowing who Patrick is.
Like, I think she's always probably had that concern of, like, you know, at what point is he going to succumb to his baser instincts or whatever or, like, run or something. I think art just sort of speeds that process up. And so I don't want to give art too much credit because I think. I think it would have imploded even without art at some point. I think art just sped it up.
[02:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that could be. That could be.
[02:02:05] Speaker B: But, like, I'm not saying. I'm not saying she didn't. I don't think she didn't love. But I think that she. Because I think that they've already had, like, they're already having some rockiness. So, like. Yes, Billy.
[02:02:14] Speaker A: Right.
[02:02:14] Speaker B: I think they're already having some rockiness in their relationship. Like, for all I know, they've already had conversations about. Yeah, right. And I think she. She is. She's trying to get. She's trying to bridge that. She's trying to get more hot and excited about what they're about to do. She's trying to get into the moment more, and she wants to talk about the tennis. I don't think she's trying to pick a fight, because I watched it again last night. I'm like, is she trying to. I don't think she's trying to pick a fight, but I think she's okay that it becomes a fight. But then she is sad because Patrick, for whatever reason, he doesn't act the way she expected him to act.
[02:02:46] Speaker C: Right. Right.
[02:02:47] Speaker A: I do think. Okay, I do think in some ways. Sybil, you're on. I disagree with you on the details, but I think that. That in some ways, tennis is Tashi's love language and way of connecting, and that she feels that if she has no influence on Patrick's tennis, that there's something missing in their relationship. You know? Like, she. She clearly wants to give him corrections, and he doesn't want to take that from her. And I think she finds that frustrating. Like, maybe she needs to be needed. Maybe she feels too disposable if she's just a girlfriend. You know what? You know what I mean? So, like, so. And so she's trying to bring up tennis when they're in bed talking to each other, and Patrick's like. And she's talking about art and how good he is at tennis. And Patrick's like, are we still playing for your number? Like, I thought I'd already won. Tashi says, you always think you've won before the match is over. Patrick says, are we talking about tennis? Tashi says, we're always talking about tennis. Patrick says, can we not? And that's essentially where the fight begins. Now, this is important, too. There's electronic music that plays over this.
Now, Tashi and Patrick have electronic music several times in their conversations. Art and Tashi never do. It plays over the tennis matches. It plays over Patrick and Tashi. It never plays over Art and Tashi, except a couple times Tashi leaves the room, and you get a little tiny snatch of it when art is by himself without Tashi. And I think this is significant, and I think that it indicates that art and that Patrick and Tashi challenge each other in a way that Tashi and art don't. And, like, that's. That's one of the things I was noticing anyway. Sorry, that was a little bit of a long.
[02:04:21] Speaker C: Yeah, well, Patrick is clearly more of a challenge in general. Like, art is pretty. I would say Art's pretty easy. Like, you know, like, he's kind of like a little bit of a puppy dog around her. And, like. And I. And, you know, and. And Patrick is not at all like he is. You know, he's. You know, because they're both like, Patrick and Tashi are both confident people.
Like, they kind of care, you know, I'm sure there are insecurities there, but they both carry themselves with a fair amount of, like, bravado. And I think that's always gonna clash when you have two personalities like that.
And, you know, Art. Arts doesn't have that. That's just not who he is.
[02:05:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Like, when you say puppy dog. Yeah. Patrick actually says to Tashi, I'm not some lap dog who. Who's going to sit around and let you punish me. I'm not art. So he says this to her when she basically interrupts, like, stops having sex with him because he won't talk about tennis and goes and says she's going to prepare for her match. He leaves, and he says he's not going to watch her match that day. And. And then this significantly, is the match where Tashi is injured. So this is, like, brings about the rupture not only of their relationship, but of his relationship with Art and of Tashi's tennis career. So, like, everything is broken here except for Art and Tashi.
[02:05:35] Speaker B: I Have a question right here. So if Tashi at this point does not get injured, does she end up with Art?
[02:05:44] Speaker C: No, probably not.
I would argue that she probably doesn't end up with either of them if this doesn't happen.
[02:05:52] Speaker B: I agree. I think that he gets bored of them at one point and then she goes along her eyes. But she's how she decides that. That she needs to tie her string to somebody. Right. And that Arts, she can control Art and that he has the option to have a great and beautiful career, especially if she's in charge of it.
[02:06:09] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[02:06:10] Speaker A: But it doesn't happen for a few years. Notably, like it takes a few more years for her to get involved.
[02:06:15] Speaker B: I think she's a long term planner. Right. She's plotting at that point. She's like, this is, this is my, this is one of my escape hatches. Because she knows that she'll never be able to make Patrick a better player the way she'd want to.
[02:06:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I think, you know, I think Patrick actually sums it up pretty well himself at some point in the film where he even references. And you know, because Patrick goes up and down on what he thinks of his own talent.
Like, and at one point I think he even mentions that he's like hit his peak or something and it's like.
And I don't think that's inaccurate. I think, I think at the end of the day, Patrick is the best he's gonna be as a tennis player when he's playing Art.
When he's not. Art, I think is the better tennis player. Between the two of them, I think Art is better. But I think Patrick, when he's playing Art is, is always better than Art because he just knows him so well and he understands how to get at him. And he like, you know, their thickest things. Like he knows his game probably almost as well as Art does.
[02:07:17] Speaker A: Is.
[02:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[02:07:19] Speaker C: And. And I think that is something that he has. But I think he's always got a plateau. I think there's always a ceiling that Patrick is going to eventually hit where he's not going to be able to go further. Which is why when he does the whole thing of like, hey, leave Art, come and coach me and you can actually do something with me. The whole time I'm like, but can she?
Like, I don't know that she can. I don't know that you have that ability. Ability.
[02:07:44] Speaker A: I think he. I think she could. That's. Well, we'll save. Well, I would. I'll save that for later.
[02:07:48] Speaker C: Well, I'll Say this. I think there's a better chance of that happening, because at the end of the day, I mean, this whole thesis of this film to me could be summed up in Art and Patrick need each other. How she thinks she can replace one or the other, she realizes she cannot, and so she has to get them back together because they need each other to be their best selves on the court.
[02:08:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[02:08:09] Speaker C: Art needs Patrick. Patrick needs Art, and she can't replace either one of them. And so it's like, okay, well, we're gonna go. We're gonna be a throuple again.
[02:08:18] Speaker B: So she breaks her legs. She breaks her leg, right? And then Patrick, who's, you know, been pounding, doing whatever he's doing, right. He. He does finally show up. But, like, she doesn't want to see him.
[02:08:29] Speaker A: And. Yeah.
[02:08:30] Speaker B: And she. Right. She is. Patrick, get. And Art yells, patrick, get the out. Right.
[02:08:35] Speaker A: So why?
[02:08:36] Speaker B: Why? Because this is one of the parts of the scene I'm like, why is she so angry at Patrick?
[02:08:41] Speaker A: Does she blame him? Probably. I mean, that's part of why she probably injured herself. Honestly, I think she gets distracted because she was looking for him in the stands and he wasn't there.
[02:08:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I struggled with that scene. And I remember at first, before I'd watched it 87 times, I was like, oh, well, maybe she was looking for a way to get with Art, and this was an excuse to. But then the more I watched it, it was like, no. I do think it is a lot more simple of an explanation. I think she does blame Patrick. I think she thinks I. This never would have happened had we not had that argument before my match. I was distracted. I've now injured myself. This is Patrick's fault entirely. And, like, that's the easiest way for her to make it make sense. Other than I. I moved my foot the wrong way or I did this thing. I made this mistake that caused injury or just life.
[02:09:32] Speaker B: Bodies. Yeah. Like, listen, athletes bodies give up. It doesn't. Like, you don't know sometimes.
[02:09:36] Speaker C: But I think she has such confidence in herself and such, I think, an ego about the way she plays. I think she has to have someone to blame for that.
[02:09:44] Speaker B: I agree. I think that she has, and I think she continues to blame Patrick. I don't know if she ever doesn't blame Patrick.
[02:09:52] Speaker A: Okay, so we then. We also then, like, fast forward a little bit. We see Tashi practice practicing with Art after the injury. And there's this moment in the movie where she realizes that she can't play tennis at this at least at a high level anymore. She breaks her racket in frustration. She goes to sit by a tree. And this is our second incident of incidents of choral music in the movie. I think before I thought they were all the same song. I might have said that earlier in the podcast. They are not. They are three different choral songs sung by, I think, the same choir. Though the one that's used in this scene is a Scottish folk song. Oh, waley waley. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, but I'll put it in the show notes too. Some of the lyrics for that are, the water is wide, I cannot get, or. And neither have I wings to fly. Give me a boat that will carry two and both shall row my love and I. That seems sort of intentional.
[02:10:44] Speaker C: The what? That's. The water is wide.
Yeah, that's it. I loved. I love that song. Yeah, that is a very class. I forgot that that was the song they used.
Yeah, that's a gorgeous song.
[02:10:56] Speaker A: But the lyrics to me seems somewhat intentional there. Like, she can't cross, so she needs a boat that will carry two maybe.
[02:11:05] Speaker C: And both will row by love and I.
[02:11:07] Speaker A: And then later in the song, though, it says, I leaned my back up against some oak. She's leaning against a tree, by the way, in this scene, thinking that he was a trusty tree but first he bended and then he broke and so did my false love to me. So, yeah, so, I mean, you could look at that as like she is relying on art to kind of like be her way to get across and then he becomes unreliable to her at some point. I mean, you could lay that on those lyrics onto the story that way, I think.
[02:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I love the. I love that you've deep dived into the music and like, pulled that stuff out. I've actually. That's not a scene that I even think about much. So I was like, oh, okay, well, next time I watch it, guess what? I'm watching that scene harder and listen to that music.
[02:11:53] Speaker C: Well, it just makes me. It just makes me think about the fact that Jillian Welch recorded a gorgeous cover of that song quite a few years ago that I now want to listen to.
[02:12:02] Speaker A: Well, let me just say I watched this movie once with mostly the music cues in mind and, like, it. It kind of like blew my mind a little bit how carefully they're laid in.
All right, so Art and Tashi, we have now the Applebee's scene. Oh, go ahead, Billy Ray. You sound like you want to go out right away.
[02:12:20] Speaker C: Oh, any scene set at Applebee's. One of my favorite shows ever is Friday Night Lights, because half that show was set at Applebee's.
[02:12:26] Speaker B: 100%. 100%.
[02:12:28] Speaker A: In this movie, the Applebee's scene. Art and Tashi are meeting up some years after college, and Art is basically proposing that Tashi come with. Work for him. She's been working, I think, as a hitting partner with a successful tennis player. Woman's tennis player. And Art's kind of like, well, why don't you come work for me? And she's kind of like, is that going to be a good idea?
Because. Because you might still be in love with me. And then they end up kissing in the parking lot. Anyway.
[02:12:54] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a. That's. It's a way more complex scene than it seems on the surface. There's a lot go. I mean, every scene in this film, there's so much going on that it's hard to track everything. But, like. Yeah, that scene is so interesting. And. And I always kind of. I try to, like. Like what. How does. Like, clearly Art's going into this meeting with an agenda. Like, he knows what he wants out of this.
I. I wonder what Tashi expects out of this meeting and what she wants out of it. And. And. And how she really does feel about Art. Like, does she. When she kisses him in the parking lot, it's not the most passionate kiss.
Like, I mean, it's. It's almost like.
[02:13:40] Speaker B: I don't know.
[02:13:40] Speaker C: It's not like it's an obligatory kiss.
[02:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah, but.
[02:13:43] Speaker C: But it is like. Almost like it's like she's doing something like she feels she has to do.
[02:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah. It's no. Patrick and Tashi in the parking lot, kids.
[02:13:52] Speaker C: No, no, It's. It's like this is what I. This is. I'm signing up for this. This is part of it. It is kind of how it feels. And it doesn't mean. I. I certainly never think. I. I think she always has feelings for Patrick and Art. I don't think she ever doesn't have feelings for both of them. I think the feelings go up and down depending. But it just feels like with Art, it does feel like she is settling.
[02:14:18] Speaker A: To an extent or like he feeds something in her, but it's not something passionate, maybe.
[02:14:25] Speaker C: Well, she thinks she can live. I think she thinks she can live vicariously through him. Like, if she can't have the career that she.
That she believes she deserves and should have had, she can. She can give him that career.
[02:14:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[02:14:39] Speaker C: And. And Maybe and start a new career for herself as a coach and like. And just have a different level of power.
[02:14:46] Speaker A: So many parallels. Yeah, so, so many parallels. Like, it's blowing my mind when I think about it now. So we had two parking lot kisses in this movie, and now we have two scenes in a row where somebody's asking Tashi to be their coach. Because we go right from this to Patrick getting Tasha to come out in, like, the alleyway of the hotel or something to ask. Oh, my God, to ask such a.
[02:15:07] Speaker C: Patrick way to ask something like that.
[02:15:09] Speaker A: Yeah, to ask her if she will be his coach. So, yeah, he gets her to come into the alleyway. And I love this scene. For me, this is why I'm pat. I'm team. I'm team Throuple first, but I'm team Patrick and Tashi second.
And it's because he sees through her so easily. And I feel like I want that in a partner. I want someone who can see, who's got my number and understands what I'm doing. You know what I mean? Like. Like, Patrick asked Tasha to be his coach. And I don't remember exactly what preceded this dialogue, but.
Oh, actually, Sybil, do you want to rom com theater this with me?
[02:15:47] Speaker B: Okay, wait, hold on.
[02:15:49] Speaker A: Is that what you and Art are doing? Living the dream?
[02:15:52] Speaker B: That is exactly what the fuck we're doing.
[02:15:54] Speaker A: Then how come you hate him?
You do. It's obvious you do. You can feel him giving up already, even though you know he's not going to retire until you let him. He's ready to be dead, and you're starting to realize you might not want to be buried with him.
I should have kept more of the Tashi dialogue. I didn't plan to.
[02:16:11] Speaker B: Every rom com theater it, but all right, no worries.
But no, it is very powerful and it's so true. Like, Patrick sees through everybody because Art literally is like, I want to retire. And you can see he just wants to spend time with his kid and he hampers and, like, not fucking hurt anymore.
[02:16:29] Speaker C: No, he just wants to be the guy who gets paid a lot of money to, like, commentate on, like, es ESPN or some and actually have a life and have a family and get a little bit of a beer belly and, like, he just wants to settle down.
[02:16:44] Speaker A: Well, at any rate, Tashi rejects Patrick's, like, offer to coach him, but she takes his number nevertheless. And as she's walking away from Patrick, you hear the same or the same score music that is in the beach tennis scene where she's talking about Tennis being a relationship. And we get the whole philosophy of tennis, which I think is significant.
I'm not exactly sure what it means, but I think it's significant.
[02:17:10] Speaker C: You're finding all sorts of significance in these musical choices. I dig it.
[02:17:14] Speaker A: I'm serious. Watch it with that in mind one time and just, like, have your mind blown by, like, the way things are used and not used. I do think it's, like, supposed to be calling us back to that scene, and maybe.
I don't know, maybe it's calling back to her love of tennis. Like, she wants to coach somebody who wants to. To be successful. I wonder if that's what she's thinking and that's what the musical cue is there for. Yeah.
[02:17:34] Speaker B: Because you.
[02:17:35] Speaker C: Because you said that she rejects him, and she does, but does she? Yeah, like, she rejects him, but she rejects him in that way of, like, I'm gonna think about this. Yeah, I kept his card. I'm gonna actually think about this. Maybe he's not wrong.
Like, I, I. I think she's definitely giving herself an option there.
[02:17:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:17:56] Speaker B: Do you think that she could coach him, though? Because Patrick is, like, no now.
[02:18:00] Speaker A: I do. I think he's older now. I think. I think he's older and humbled now to some degree, but also.
[02:18:06] Speaker C: And also, like, you know, at this age in their lives, if art, you know, if Art's done, he's got a kid, he's got a wife. He's got, like. Patrick doesn't really have anything if he doesn't have tennis.
[02:18:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:18:17] Speaker C: He's going back to work at his family's business or something. Right. Which he has expressed he does not want to do.
So it's like, this might be, for him his last chance to actually, like, do something with his life in a substantive way. And so I do think he's serious. Like, I do think it is partly a ploy to get Tashi, but I also think he is very serious about, like, I could make a real run at this.
[02:18:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
And then significantly, also, that he seeds in here. Did you tell Art about Atlanta? And we're about to find out what that means.
[02:18:52] Speaker C: Yep.
[02:18:52] Speaker A: Yep.
[02:18:53] Speaker C: The windstorm from hell.
[02:18:55] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Okay. This windstorm. I was so excited. I had to. I try. I finally found an answer to my question.
So I. I thought the windstorm was probably not in the original script, and I was right. And the reason I thought this is because Guadagnino loves Dario Argento, and Dario Argento has so many films where there's just, like, this atmospheric Wind blowing for absolutely no reason. Sure enough, Guadagnino put the atmospheric wind into the movie. I'm like, I knew it. I knew it. So I was happy.
[02:19:22] Speaker C: It adds so much. It's just like this nice little touch that really does add a lot to the. To that sequence.
[02:19:28] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I was so. I was so excited, though. You know how you get excited when you're like, I saw it.
[02:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I saw your homage. I saw it, sir.
[02:19:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:19:37] Speaker A: He loves Argento Guadanito, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, are we at the Windstorm yet? We're not at the Windstorm yet. We're eight years earlier right now.
[02:19:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I think we're at the sauna.
[02:19:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Not quite. Almost. Almost.
First we see a clip of Patrick watching Art and Tashi play.
Watching Tashi help Art, like, prepare for the open. Patrick walks in wearing the I told you shirt again. And that. Yeah, okay. And then we get to the present day. Yes. There's where we have our wins. They kick off, and now we have the sauna. And the sauna is going to be interlaced with what happened in Atlanta, which is really great. I love how it takes a beat. The Atlanta flashback basically establishes that Patrick and Tashi had an affair at the Atlanta Open. And we also find out that Art saw them talking and then he didn't see them leave, but he saw that they had left.
[02:20:28] Speaker B: So disappear. Like, he literally had to handle some fans. And then he turns around after dealing with. With the part of his job that he fucking hates and has seen the two people that matter most to him disappear together.
[02:20:40] Speaker A: What is remarkable to me about Patrick and Tashi in this scene, though, is they see each other through glass already. Electronic music kicks up. Just them seeing each other. They're just so intense. They're staring at each other. Patrick comes to sit at the damn table. They barely talk and they're already making out. Oh, and there's a hilarious callback Joe carried too. So when Patrick get, like. Remember like, way back when they were teenagers? And like, Art's like, please let me win for my grandma. And after Tom, she says she's going to give the number to whoever wins. Patrick says, Patrick says he's not going to let him win anymore. Art's like, what about my grandma? Patrick says, I hope she has a stroke. We find out in Atlanta that Art's grandmother died of a stroke.
[02:21:23] Speaker C: Yeah, that is a funny callback. I didn't get that till, like, the fifth or sixth next time. I saw the movie and I remember getting it just Cackling that's some dark, man.
[02:21:35] Speaker A: Anyway, sorry I went off the rails here, but, yeah. That is such an intense scene, though, when they meet up again. It is crazy.
[02:21:44] Speaker C: You know, there are some people that. That you're involved with that just every time you see them, it just. The intensity just goes to 11.
[02:21:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:21:53] Speaker C: And it's just always there. Like, it's just so charged. And you definitely get that sense with the two of them. It is always charged.
[02:22:00] Speaker A: Yep. So. Yeah. And. And, yeah. Tom, do we think that Art knows that they slept with each other or just suspects it?
[02:22:08] Speaker B: I think he knows. I think he knows. I think he. I think he wishes he suspects it, but in his heart of heart, he absolutely knows.
[02:22:16] Speaker C: I think he knows, but has convinced himself it didn't happen. He's holding out hope that maybe they did it, but I think he knows that they did. I mean, the other question we haven't gotten to is, whose child is their child?
[02:22:29] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Because the timing is very convenient and the child is barely focused on it all, but then sometimes brought up kind of near these scenes. Like, I'm. Like, I don't.
[02:22:42] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna just give her the benefit of the doubt that it's Art. Art's kid. But there's always that question mark.
[02:22:47] Speaker A: I think it would actually make much more sense narratively if it's Patrick's kid. I think, like, I think her aversion. Her extreme aversion to Patrick after this incident in Atlanta, like, where she's like, get away from me. Like, if you felt really guilty because, like, that wasn't even Arts kid, that would be a good reason why she doesn't want to deal with Patrick at all.
I don't know.
[02:23:08] Speaker C: That's fair. That's fair.
[02:23:11] Speaker B: And it's not even guilt is like, maybe she just doesn't want him to ever see the kid or know about. You know, like, think about it himself.
[02:23:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:23:17] Speaker B: Don't ever ask those questions. Don't look at the kid and think, huh, that looks like my dad's nose.
[02:23:22] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it could be just like a home at the end of the world, and they could all three raise the kid together.
[02:23:26] Speaker A: I know.
Anyway. Anyway. But anyway, we're not there yet. We are instead at the sauna of. I don't know what to call this. The sauna.
[02:23:36] Speaker B: This is the important sauna scene. So Art is sitting in the sauna, and Patrick walks in and just, like, whips off his towel.
[02:23:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:23:46] Speaker B: And puts his dick right in front of poor Art's face. Well, like, job area.
[02:23:53] Speaker A: You make it sound a lot more like. You make it sound a lot more like out there than it actually is, though. I mean, there's no. It was. There's some plausible deniability of there. It's not like, quite as extreme as all that.
[02:24:05] Speaker B: I. I want to say that it's that extreme. I watched that again last night and was like, not it. Nope, that's exactly what that is.
[02:24:11] Speaker C: Oh, I think, I think he is using his dick as a deadly weapon.
He. He know, he know, like, like this to me, like, even though I would say that Patrick comes out on the losing end of this altercation.
[02:24:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:24:27] Speaker C: I feel like he comes in, like, ready to fucking play.
Like, he comes in ready to. For a match and he does, I think, get bested.
I just don't think he's in the best position to actually come across as ahead in this. But boy, it's fascinating.
[02:24:46] Speaker A: So, yeah, we also. The reason this is intercut too, like with the Atlanta scene. Patrick calls out Art, like. Like, why are you so upset with me? Like, I don't buy it. It's just because of Tashi. I think maybe you're still just really disturbed by the fact that she could have been into someone like me. Art says, when we were teenagers. And then Patrick goes, huh? When we were teenagers.
[02:25:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:25:10] Speaker A: And then he smiles and like, he's just, you know. And this is bringing us back to look at this affair scene again.
[02:25:16] Speaker C: So he's always like, patrick is smirking through 90 of this movie.
[02:25:21] Speaker A: I guess I'm a sucker for a smirk, man. I don't know.
[02:25:24] Speaker C: Yeah, well, Josh o' Connor is a champion smirker.
[02:25:28] Speaker A: All right, so we've got the sauna scene and this electronic music is again playing in. In this scene. It kicks in at the point where Art starts getting digs in at Patrick. And I'm willing to read either Art or Patrick. Billy Ray, I don't really have a.
[02:25:43] Speaker C: You know, why don't you just stick with Patrick? He's your boy. Okay, Are we ready?
[02:25:48] Speaker A: Yep. Every rom com theater. Let's go.
[02:25:52] Speaker C: We both know you have considerably more at stake here than I do.
[02:25:56] Speaker A: Do I?
[02:26:00] Speaker C: What the. Oh, where do you get your swagger from, man? I mean, you come in here swinging your dick around like I'm supposed to be afraid of it, but do you realize how embarrassing it is that you're here right now?
[02:26:12] Speaker A: Not quite as embarrassing as you being here.
[02:26:14] Speaker C: I'm just stopping by, man. This is where you live?
You know, I always tried to figure out what Happened to you. But, you know, the more I've thought about it, the more I realize it's what didn't happen.
You never grew up. You still think you can talk to me like you're my peer because we came from the same place. But it's not about where you come from in tennis. It's about winning. And I do a lot.
[02:26:39] Speaker A: You've never beaten me.
[02:26:41] Speaker C: So what? I haven't beaten most of the guys who play at these things. This is a game about winning. The points that matter.
[02:26:47] Speaker A: I don't matter.
[02:26:49] Speaker C: Not even to the most obsessive tennis fan in the entire world.
[02:26:53] Speaker A: We're not talking about tennis.
[02:26:55] Speaker C: What the fuck else do I have to talk to you about?
[02:26:58] Speaker A: I wanted to come in here and wish you luck. Art.
[02:27:01] Speaker C: That makes no sense.
[02:27:03] Speaker A: I wanted to say that I'm looking forward to it and that I miss playing with you.
[02:27:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
Hmm.
Well. Well, I don't miss playing with you, man. I'm too old for it.
[02:27:15] Speaker A: And then he mic drops and leaves the sauna.
And all that dialogue is so much better with the electronic music over it, which is crazy because usually you wouldn't think dialogue scene. Clearly we need, like, some kind of, like, techno soundtrack, but it fucking works.
[02:27:29] Speaker C: Well, it's better with the sweaty guys, too.
[02:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, sweaty guys.
[02:27:34] Speaker A: Well, I will say, Billy Ray, I absolutely agree with you that. That Art won this match. Art won this match. Oh, and poor Patrick. He looks so sad. Like. And this is another. Again, more parallels. So again, in the dorm scene, he wanted to talk about his relationship with Tashi. She. And she wanted to talk about tennis. In this scene with Art, he wanted to bring it back to the relationship. And Art only wanted to talk about Tetis. It's. It's. It makes me a little sad. I mean, I do think he was also with Art, but, like, I do think he was with Art. And he wanted to be friends with Art.
[02:28:06] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. I think this is the. The dude. This is the scene where Patrick is like, I miss my friend.
Yeah.
[02:28:13] Speaker C: Yeah. I think it's a. I think it's a weird combination of. I think he is trying to dig at Art and throw him off a little bit. But I also think that's just part of their friendship. And I think he misses that interplay. Yeah, he misses that back and forth the two of them have.
[02:28:29] Speaker A: Yep.
[02:28:30] Speaker C: He's just not used to being on the losing end of it.
[02:28:33] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah.
All right. Anything more we want to say about the sauna scene? I mean, it's hot. Like, I'll Say that it's a hot scene just because these guys look great. And it's just. There is an eroticism to it, even though they're fighting.
[02:28:46] Speaker C: Yeah. Hashtag team art.
[02:28:47] Speaker B: Right.
They're sweaty in the sauna.
[02:28:52] Speaker A: Hashtag. Hashtag team Patrick.
[02:28:55] Speaker C: Yep.
[02:28:56] Speaker A: Are you still team no.1, Sybil?
[02:28:58] Speaker B: Still team no.1.
[02:28:59] Speaker A: All right, all right. I don't know how you.
[02:29:02] Speaker B: None of them get together because they're.
[02:29:04] Speaker A: So toxic, but that's why they should get together.
[02:29:07] Speaker C: I think they're all the right amount of toxicity. Toxic for each other.
[02:29:10] Speaker A: Exactly. And sometimes people, like, when they're together, they can, like, ease the edges off each other's toxicity. I feel like.
[02:29:19] Speaker B: Agree. I don't think that's the case between them. I think that.
[02:29:22] Speaker C: Yeah, wait till the sequel. Wait till the sequel.
[02:29:25] Speaker A: I know. That's what I wanted. I hope we have time to talk about the sequel, quite frankly, and what we would do for a sequel. So we'll. We'll see if we can get there. Okay, so now we have a little clip. It's very short clip. And this scene's taking place after the sauna scene. Art does not seem so tough anymore now that he's talking with Tashi.
[02:29:44] Speaker B: Tell me it doesn't matter.
Tell me it doesn't matter if I win tomorrow.
[02:29:58] Speaker A: No, you tell me if it matters. You're the professional competition, Art.
It can't be about avoiding my judgment.
[02:30:13] Speaker B: I'm not a nun.
[02:30:13] Speaker A: I'm not your mommy.
[02:30:14] Speaker B: I'm just asking that you love me no matter what.
[02:30:17] Speaker A: What am I? Jesus. Yeah, you can beat him.
What if I don't?
[02:30:32] Speaker B: How are you gonna look at me if I still can't beat Patrick's fyke?
Just like this.
[02:30:42] Speaker A: So, yeah, I mean, we. This goes on, and Art says, I'm gonna say something. It's probably gonna make you angry. That's exactly how Patrick prefaced the thing he said to Tashi in the alleyway, asking to be his coach. So they're both doing this parallel here, and.
Yeah. And he. Then he tells Tashi he wants to retire, just like Patrick predicted. You know, they have that whole exchange, and then Tashi says, if you don't win tomorrow, I'll leave. I'll leave you. I'm serious. Does that help you? I want to know. Does she mean that? Is she gonna leave him? Or is she just doing that to try to motivate him?
[02:31:16] Speaker B: I. I don't think she means it. I don't think she means even a little bit.
[02:31:20] Speaker C: I don't think she does either.
I think. I think it is definitely for motivation.
I know. I'm not suggesting that. I think she's fully happy with the situation she's in with Art, but I don't think she's at a place where she's wanting to, like, just leave.
At least not yet, I think.
[02:31:43] Speaker A: I don't know.
I wonder. Because then they get into this, like, scene where they're making out and it starts like it could turn into sex, but then Art instead, like, lays his head in Tashi's lap like he's her child or something.
[02:31:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:31:56] Speaker A: And asks Tashi to hold him instead.
The song playing over this, I looked up too. It is called Picado by Catano Villoso. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing his name correctly. The title of the song means sin. The lyrics, in general talk about a strong love that may be forbidden or sinful, but even so can't be resisted.
If you'll indulge me, I'll do a little bit of the lyrics. Here it goes. Yo no seis sies prohibito I don't know if it's prohibited Si no tiene perdon if it can't be forgiven Si me lleva alabismo if it carries me to the abyss Solo se que es amor I only know it's love Yuno, se si este amor es pecado I don't know if this love is sinful Que tiene castigo if it will be punished Si es faltar Alas lees homradas del hombre y de Dios if it is against the law Honorable laws of men and gods so that's an intense song.
[02:32:54] Speaker C: Well, that song, I think, is literally her just thinking about what she's about to do with Patrick. Because the next thing we see after this is Tashi meeting Patrick and them.
[02:33:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that's true. It could be Tashi. Tashi's thoughts, or it could be art. Just, like, loving her so much and, like, he doesn't even care, like, what happens. He will love her no matter what, in some way. I don't know. It's interesting.
[02:33:19] Speaker C: I think it. I think it's even more simple that I think it is just Guadagnino setting up the next scene.
[02:33:25] Speaker A: Well, I thought it was a really interesting musical cue. It's different from the other musical cues in the movie.
All right. Yeah. Midnight. We come to the midnight sequence. Tashi sneaks out to meet Patrick. This is where we really get the crazy windstorm action. It really like, when I saw this first, it really did remind me of a Dario Argento horror movie where they have just, like, the wind sound and the wind being so extra and blowing everything around. There's this great scene, like, eventually they end up in a parking lot and there's red headlights and, like, they're. They're alone together. And that's proceeding right before they start making out, like, with this crazy passion. I don't know. I love it. I love the whole setup here. The atmosphere.
[02:34:04] Speaker B: Also, like, everything. It's all this trash, right, that's going around. Yeah, it's like. Because, like, they're relate. Like, this is.
They're doing something that is. I'm not gonna say trashy, but, like, they're doing something that is. Should be forbidden. That I don't think either of them particularly feel good about. But they can't, like, stop themselves from doing it.
[02:34:23] Speaker A: I don't know. I think Patrick feels pretty good about it.
[02:34:27] Speaker C: Does.
[02:34:27] Speaker B: I think he. I think he would feel better about it. Because I don't think actually Patrick likes to fuck over his best friend. I don't think that's the truth. I think that he would feel better about it if he hadn't fucked up his life and he was with her. I definitely think he still wants to get her over Art. But I think also Patrick is probably. He does understand that, like, they're better altogether and he just wants to be back in the fold.
[02:34:50] Speaker C: Here's the question. Because, like, I know that if you made Art choose between Tashi and Patrick, he would choose Tashi. A hundred times out of a hundred.
I go back and forth on who I think Patrick would choose.
I don't know that he would choose Tashi.
[02:35:08] Speaker B: I don't think so either.
[02:35:09] Speaker A: I think he would.
[02:35:10] Speaker C: I think he might choose Art.
I think the more meaningful relationship in his life has been his relationship with Art.
[02:35:18] Speaker A: I think there's something about Tashi, though, that, like, speaks to him in a different way. So. I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think he. I think he cares about them pretty equally, if anything. But. Yeah.
So, yeah, in this scene, the significance of this, beyond Tashi and Patrick making out and then having sex in the car, is that Tashi asks Patrick to lose to Art the next day. And Patrick initially says he's not going to do it, but then he says he will do it. But then after they've had sex, he's a little cagey. She's like, how am I going to know that? You're really going to do it. He says, you won't know, basically.
[02:35:54] Speaker C: So, yeah, he was never gonna do it, ever.
[02:35:56] Speaker A: Well, maybe he would lose.
[02:35:58] Speaker B: No, I don't know. I don't think he knows.
[02:36:00] Speaker C: I don't think. I think it's a nice callback to when Art asked him to throw the match earlier. He told Art that he would do it. He didn't. Well, I don't think. I don't think he ever had an intention of it. I think he. I think Patrick, for all of the negatives of Patrick, I do think when it comes to playing. I mean, I think he'll play mind games like anybody. Like, you know, like he does with Art to try to win a game. I don't think he would ever throw a game. I don't think that is part of his character. I think. I think it's a game. And I think that's why he's like, sure, I'll do it. No, I won't. And trying to keep people guessing. But just my personal opinion is I don't think he ever had any intention of throwing the game.
And because it certainly doesn't look like he's even remotely trying. I mean, he definitely has decided by the time the game starts that he's not gonna do it. Because he's certainly not playing like someone who would be trying to throw a game.
[02:36:54] Speaker B: Well, no, because she tells him not to give it to him. She says, don't just throw it away. Make him work for it.
[02:36:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[02:36:59] Speaker B: And there are parts. Even by the end, he's still quit. I think those last, like, three times he's thinking before he decides to tell. To, like, to do the normal. The normal, you know, serve with a ball between. To say, I, your wife. I think he's still thinking about whether he should or shouldn't.
[02:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:37:18] Speaker C: See, I think he's just toying with Art.
[02:37:21] Speaker A: All right, before we get totally into the tennis, I do want to, like. Like, just really quickly back up to, like, the parking lot scene. Because I think the filming there is very interesting, too.
In the parking lot, they have this confrontation. She asks. Asks Patrick to let her out of the car. And there's this moment between them where she spits in his face.
[02:37:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:37:41] Speaker A: And then visceral. But then after she spits in his face, like, it's really interesting. Like, everything slows down. They actually. Guadagnino and Sayumbu Muktipuram, the cinematographer, they did this thing where they made everything look kind of blurry and almost mystical. And they just really Shot things so they were kind of in slow motion.
Guadagnino said about this scene, I wanted to have an almost impossible eroticism happening between the two. They play cat and mouse in the car. They clearly want to do something together that is erotic. And they can't, because they're fighting and can't admit their feelings for each other. But then they surrender to the moment in order to see that moment. We made it very slow. I thought. I thought it was so. It was so interesting, like, the way they filmed that. And then again, we get more clothes. Choral music the third incidents of Choral Music Friday afternoons Opus 7, a new carol composed by Benjamin Brittain.
The lyrics are kind of random to me, but it says here, we bring new water from the well. So clear for to worship God with this. Happy New Year. I mean, I don't know, man. I don't know what that's supposed to signify, but this is our other incidents of choral music. And it's very.
I don't know, it feels remarkable in the scene, everything's slowed down, and then we have that music cue, and then they just maul each other with passion.
[02:39:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
Yeah.
I love it. I love that. I. I love the look on his face when she spits on him.
Like, it is, like. It's a look of, like. You can tell he was very surprised by it.
[02:39:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:39:15] Speaker C: But is also turned on by it.
[02:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah.
[02:39:19] Speaker B: And he's all. I think there's a part of him that's so happy that he's gotten hurt.
[02:39:23] Speaker A: This.
[02:39:24] Speaker B: This, like, passionate upset. He's gotten this much emotion.
[02:39:27] Speaker C: She cares enough to spit on me.
[02:39:29] Speaker B: That's right.
[02:39:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Like, that's a big deal. And there's such a thin line between someone who will spit on you and then your brains out.
[02:39:36] Speaker B: Right. Because she. She pretends to be an ice queen. Right. She's an ice queen everywhere but on the tennis court.
[02:39:42] Speaker C: Right.
[02:39:43] Speaker B: Except with Patrick.
[02:39:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:39:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And I do, like, they. There's a little flashback to, like, the aftermath of their second too, where he basically says, I miss watching you play. You were so beautiful. So, like, you see, he really did value her playing, too. He valued who she was. And, like, it's really kind of a sweet scene between the two of them because he's holding her in. In his arms and she's laying back against him. So I do feel like there's a sweetness between the two of them. I don't think it's like.
[02:40:13] Speaker C: I think that's the sweetest scene that they have together.
And I think. And I think maybe, you know, it shows you a little bit about how maybe they were when Art wasn't around and it was just the two of them when they were together. I think maybe it gives you a little sense of, like, why someone would be with a guy like Patrick. Like, he can be sweet and he can be. You know, he can have those moments of, like, honesty and support, like, all of that stuff.
[02:40:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:40:37] Speaker C: And I. I think that's. I. I think. And I think that comes at the perfect moment in the movie.
[02:40:43] Speaker A: He also looked so gutted, though, when he comes to see her after she's been injured. He looks so worried for her. Like, So, I think, like. Yeah, I felt like. Yeah, I feel, like, his concern for her throughout the movie. But.
[02:40:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I don't think he left their argument. I mean, not to pro. But, like, that argument before she hurt herself, he certainly didn't leave that argument thinking they were breaking up.
[02:41:01] Speaker A: Yeah. No. Yeah.
[02:41:02] Speaker C: Like. And that, I think, is when he's. When he. I mean. Yeah, that's just.
[02:41:07] Speaker A: Yeah. All right. Anything more about that thing, or should we go to match point? Should we go back to the game?
[02:41:13] Speaker C: Let's go to match point.
[02:41:14] Speaker A: All right, so we already talked about this, where Patrick shows the. The special serve to indicate that he has slept with Tashi.
And initially, Art, like, pretty much almost gives up at first. Like, but then he starts to play with kind of real passion. And I wonder, like, what that.
[02:41:35] Speaker B: That.
[02:41:35] Speaker A: What that was for him. Like, how did he go through all those, like, emotions?
[02:41:40] Speaker C: I mean. Yeah. I mean, like, that. That last sequence, there's just so much going on in that scene, like, between all three of them. So much that is totally unsaid.
[02:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:41:48] Speaker C: And that is just being played through the tennis and through, like, it is one of the better examples. I mean, it's not totally silent. I mean, there. There are certainly words in there, but boy, oh, boy, the. The. The number of words they use is small. And each one of them is so powerful.
[02:42:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:42:04] Speaker B: And it is. It is so much like. Like, when you watch that, it's so much of the camera angles and the looks on people on their faces. Which is why, like, I look at that scene and I think to myself, how were they ignored during the Oscars? Right.
[02:42:17] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[02:42:18] Speaker B: So much going on with so very little dialogue.
[02:42:21] Speaker C: It's just one of the best endings. It really is just one of the best endings. Like, it ends in a perfect way for that movie.
[02:42:29] Speaker A: And there is so much going on with camera work and cinematography in this last sequence, too. Where they. Where art really gets into the game for real and they start playing in earnest. Like, they had this, like, tennis ball POV thing going on. They had a clear acrylic platform that they were filming from underneath for some of those shots where you see them kind of leaping into the air from below.
I'll put some links to some of the articles that I looked at to, like, understand what was going on, if you're interested.
But apparently, too, according to American Cinematographer, the climactic tennis sequence had about 90 setups and a 500 cuts. So.
[02:43:06] Speaker C: Jesus.
[02:43:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I'm floored by that. And actually, I don't know, it wasn't clear the way they phrased it in this article, whether they meant just this portion of the tennis sequence or if they meant how it was clipped throughout the movie. But I do think it was actually just referring to this bit at the end. I don't know.
[02:43:22] Speaker B: I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on. I mean, and. And just, like, the way that we see from the. From the tennis ball and like, so much of the tennis shooting is so incredibly interesting.
[02:43:32] Speaker A: It's very kinetic, and it gives you an idea of the speed and the intensity of tennis in a way that other movies really haven't agreed in terms of the meaning of this last sequence, which culminates in, of course, art, like, sort of leaping over the net to try to, like. Like, hit the ball and then ending up in Patrick's arms instead, like, in them embracing each other. And then Zendaya Tashi yelling, come on. Again, like. Like in victory.
In terms of the meaning of all this, Guaganino said to Entertainment Weekly, they are acting out for 13 years the possibility of going back to that hotel room to find again that beautiful moment of burgeoning desires and innocence and at the same time, to feel at ease with one another the way they were there. So throughout the entire arc, that's what they're trying to do. And finally, with the rivalry at that heightened level, the triangle finally found itself sitting in the same place, but now on the court.
So, like, this is Guadagnito's vision. He's like, this is all just them getting back to that place that tracks.
[02:44:33] Speaker C: Entirely to me like that. Like, you know, like, I remember him saying in an interview that he thought they. That after the film was over, they would all be going back to the hotel room together. And I'm like, y. I firmly believe that.
[02:44:46] Speaker B: Me too. Me too. Like, they're clearly going to be together again.
[02:44:48] Speaker C: Like, she's calling Mama. And being like, take the kid out for some pizza. I got to do.
[02:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And we're have the best sex ever. It's gonna be amazing.
[02:44:57] Speaker C: She's like, I'm gonna.
[02:44:58] Speaker B: And watch so hard.
[02:44:59] Speaker A: Wait, who's watching? Just Tashi's watching.
I think they're all having sex.
[02:45:04] Speaker C: They. They all take turns watching, I think.
I think. I think they go through. I think they all take turns watching.
[02:45:11] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know about the details. I just. I never stopped to think about the details. But I do think it's happening. And I think Challengers 2, they are in a throuple. It may be a dysfunctional throuple, but I think they're in a throuple. Art has retired. Patrick is being poached by Tashi.
Yeah. And I think in the future, like, Art and Tashi would live together. Patrick would have a room in the house, but he'd also have his own apartment, and he'd probably be seeing a couple other people too. That's my idea.
[02:45:38] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm okay with that. That world. I'm okay with that eventuality.
[02:45:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know what the drama would be there, though. I don't know what I'd make a story about. It'd be more like a reality show.
[02:45:49] Speaker C: Well, I mean, that's where. Of course, that's when Art starts to question that Lily may not be his child.
[02:45:58] Speaker A: That still feels more like a reality show to me, though. I don't think it would have the dramatic intensity density of this film. Yeah, I think Challengers 2 would not be a movie. It would have to be a limited series.
[02:46:07] Speaker C: How about Tashi gets a bionic leg and suddenly gets to play tennis again?
[02:46:11] Speaker A: Oh.
[02:46:15] Speaker B: And she's just leaving their asses. She's like, whatever, I got 10 now.
[02:46:19] Speaker C: Yeah, like, I got my love back. Bye, boys.
[02:46:21] Speaker A: So, Sybil, you say you don't think they should be together, but you do think they will be together. Is that. What am I giving you?
[02:46:28] Speaker B: Well, any. Like, any good toxic relationship, you know, I can't quit you. And I feel that they can't quit each other. And yes, they are better together than each of them is separately. But together, I think long term, they're still incredibly toxic for each other.
[02:46:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:46:43] Speaker A: I really quick do want to shout out the costume design, though, before we get to the double features. It was done by Jonathan Anderson, who was just a regular fashion designer. He has his own brand, J.W. anderson, and he's also the creative director. I don't actually Know how to pronounce this one. Lova, maybe L, O, E, W, E.
Low. Okay. Maybe it's just low. I don't know.
[02:47:04] Speaker C: Yeah, it should just be low.
[02:47:05] Speaker A: Okay. Anyway, it's a. It's a pretty famous brand, apparently, and he was brought on to do the costumes for this. These are the. His visions of the characters that he told to W magazine, Tashi, he said, she is proof that there is something about success that ultimately makes people go toward conflict, conformity. So he's referring to the way rich people often have the same kind of clothes. Like they all kind of start looking the same. Art, he says, quote, is a vessel for whatever you want him to be. So if he's going to be Adidas, he is Adidas. If he's Uniqlo, he is Uniqlo.
And then Patrick, he said, is about portraying wealth. There is a cockiness to him, this way of putting clothing together that becomes quite seductive because he's so used to taste that even if it's put together badly, it's somehow looks good.
So that those were his character profiles for these guys.
And then I did want to mention also the I told you T shirt.
So this many people may know already that this shirt was inspired by a shirt that was on John F. Kennedy, Jr. Patrick's style in general was kind of modeled after him in some ways. John F. Kennedy, Jr. Was photographed wearing a shirt that said I told you. And it was supposed to be some kind of callback to his father's presidential campaign and inauguration.
John Kennedy. John F. Kennedy supporters at the time had little pins that said I told you so, which was indicating that they had been confident that Kennedy would win the presidency. So that's a whole rabbit hole on that T shirt.
Okay, so then I guess we'll get to then to our double feature recommendations.
I'll kick us off. So my first double feature is another Luga Guadagn movie, Bones and all from 2022. Narratively, I don't think they have like a ton to do with each other, but I think it's one of Guagnino's less seen movies that I wish more people would check out. I know a lot of people are reluctant to watch it because it's a cannibal love story.
And there are some scenes that do get a little bit gruesome. But I think overall it also functions like it's a very beautiful movie and gorgeous to look at. I think if I were to say there's a commonality, they both feature women of color in the lead actress position. So I think that's great. And I think there's a little bit of sexual fluidity there with Timothee Chalamet's character in the movie. So there's two ways that it sort of relates to challengers.
Yeah. But I think it's a great movie. It's underseen. So that's my first.
My second double feature recommendation is going to be Design for living from 1933. This is an Ernst Lubitsch film and it is about a early throuple, like a pre code movie which basically has a woman who falls in love with two men at the same time. So the woman is Miriam Hopkins. She falls in love with characters played by Gary Cooper and Frederick March.
It's a great movie. It's funny. Lubitsch was one of the inspirations for Guadagnino and Gary Cooper is smoking hot in this movie, by the way.
Like, it's probably. It's one of my favorite movies from the 1930s altogether.
And then my third double feature is going to be Game set love from 2022. About as far away from bones and all as you can get. It is a Hallmark sports rom com directed by Jessica Harmon. It is of course about tennis and it. Yeah, it's. It features a woman who kind of let go of her tennis ambitions.
She's asked to coach a very arrogant guy who's trying to do get into a doubles match. And of course she and the arrogant guy end up kind of falling in love and she kind of ends up playing tennis again. And it's, it's, you know, it's a Hallmark movie, but it's actually one of the better ones that I've seen. I would put it at least at the same level as Dashing in December Billy Ray.
[02:50:45] Speaker C: Oh, good.
[02:50:46] Speaker A: So in terms of its narrative quality and relative production values, we could do.
[02:50:51] Speaker B: A whole segment on just like Hallmark movies that might not suck.
[02:50:56] Speaker A: That's right. We could do a series for that.
[02:50:57] Speaker B: Yep, it's all series of that. Hallmark movies that might not suck. And that way people can actually watch them.
[02:51:03] Speaker A: So yeah, that one is Game Set Love, if you are interested.
[02:51:07] Speaker B: And so I want to first state that it took me forever to decide what movies to do for this because in my mind, Challengers Again Stands Alone. It's hard for me even, even pick a film that would sit with it. But I did pick my. For my first one, Love and and Basketball, which is made in 2000.
It is one of my favorite all time favorite romance kind of sports films. And I Thought that it fit well here because it has kind of the same sort of intensity. So between the couple, there's. There's this intensity also. Both of them love basketball so much. So do you love do your sport or do you love each other? Like, what is most important?
And so I thought that that fell well in. It's also with black characters, so that's great.
The next one is personal best, which I think almost no one has seen but me. I look to see where. And you can buy it on, like, prime and YouTube and stuff. So it's. It's available, but it's a lesbian from 1982. It's a lesbian film with this. With essentially, like, these two, like, Olympic athletes. And they have like, a love triangle with their coach, who is a male, but they're clearly, like, in love with each other. And the intensity between their. Their characters has very much that Guadagnino feel many times.
It is not, per se, the best movie ever made. But, like, you will still enjoy it if you like films about sports.
[02:52:34] Speaker A: So wait, which.
[02:52:35] Speaker C: I own it on dvd.
[02:52:37] Speaker B: Right on. There you go.
So there you have it.
[02:52:40] Speaker A: Wait, did you say which sport they played, though, Sybil? Like, I didn't know.
Okay. Track. Okay.
[02:52:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:52:47] Speaker B: And then I wound up watching a Bigger splash, which I had a second time because I had watched it many, many moons ago. This is a 2015 film. And I remember at the time that I was like, wow, this movie is weird.
It's super weird. And you see a lot of Ralph Fiennes being really, like. One of the most thing I took away from it is that Ralph Fiennes is, like, such an unusual character. He plays this, like, aging rock star who is, like, maybe having an affair with his daughter.
And also Tilda Swinton used to be with Tilda Swinton. And it's a love triangle between.
Maybe it's a quadrangle because it's like his daughter. Who is she? His daughter Tilda Swinton. And then Tilda Swinton's now husband.
And it's super hot. It's very spicy.
And there's also a lot of Ralph Fiennes, though. Instead of being, like, very serious, he's, like, super weird and zany. There's an entire sequence where he, like, starts running around and, like, dancing and singing. And you're like, that's. Ray finds it's so crazy.
And so I remember it being really weird. Watch it again because I'm like, I need a third movie. Started trolling for movies. And I gotta. I gotta be honest with you. Like a Guananino film. The second time I watched it, I liked it so much better.
[02:54:03] Speaker A: Nice, nice.
[02:54:05] Speaker B: And you can see all the kind of Guananino things about it like, like, you know, the way he directs is like coming to fruition here.
[02:54:13] Speaker C: So for my three, I didn't really go the spot sports route. I just went on the films that Challengers really reminded me of sort of thematically. The first is E2 Mama Tambien. The 2001 Alfonso Cuaron film stars Diego Luna and Gail Garcia Bernal as these two 17 year old boys who are on this road trip and they cross paths with a woman played by Maribel Verdu. And you know it. They ex. Let's just say they expand, explore their burgeoning sexualities in very beautiful ways. And to me, this film is probably the film that most inspired Challengers.
I know Luca Guadagnino loves this film and it is not surprising that because I feel like this film just is dripping all over Challengers. I think Challengers just. Just amps it up a couple of notches.
Another film also from that same year is the Dreamers by Bernardo Bertolucci, which is set in 1968 in the student riots in Paris. And it stars Michael Pitt and Louis Gorell. Well, actually it starts Louis Garel and Eva Green as two twins that Michael Pitt's character sort of gets involved with. And once again, clothes come off and sexy things happen.
[02:55:28] Speaker A: Yep.
[02:55:29] Speaker C: And is there some incest? Well, sure, but you know, that's Bertolucci for you.
And then finally, the Rules of attraction from 2002, which is written and directed by Roger Avery, based on the Bret Easton Ellis novel. It stars James Van Der Beek as the brother of American Psycho's Patrick Bateman. So it actually is thematically appropriate considering Luca Guadagnino is attached to the American Psycho remake. But it's really this sort of ensemble piece set at this New England in college. And you know, there is some. There is some sexual exploration afoot. The Ian Somerhalder character has a huge crush on the James Vanderbeek character. Then there's the Shannon Saucerman character that's involved. I mean, it's just. It's a lot of like sex and hormones. And I think the reason it reminds me a lot of Challengers is it's just. It's a very rock and roll kind of movie. Like just the music and the editing and the sound design. It's got a lot in common with challenges. Challengers.
[02:56:25] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah.
[02:56:27] Speaker B: The beats. The beats. I can the beats are like feel very very the same.
[02:56:31] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[02:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm really but your double features. I'm really wanting to re watch The Dreamers and E2 Mama Tombien especially though like I I think I need a threesome film festival possibly and I'll probably also add threesome to it too.
[02:56:43] Speaker C: So hey, why not. Stephen Baldwin needs some love.
[02:56:47] Speaker A: Oh anyway, thank you so much Billy Ray for coming on again. If you if, if you want to pleasure yeah if you want to point people to your socials or anything else, one more chance to do that.
[02:56:58] Speaker C: Just go to Illyray Bruton or go to corner to the stars.com and you can find everything you need.
[02:57:04] Speaker A: And that will also be in the show notes. I really recommend you check out Billy Ray and all the projects he's been involved with. And yeah, coming up on every rom com we're going to be doing the rest of our sports rom com series. This is going to be hard to top but but we're going to be doing things like Bull Durham, bend it like Beckham potentially one crazy summer and better off dead because yes, sports, possibly loving basketball. Lots of stuff going to be coming up in this series so stay tuned for that. And everyone thank you so much for listening and goodbye.
[02:57:34] Speaker C: Bye Bye.
