Every Rom Com 75: Singin' In The Rain

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Jen. [00:00:02] Speaker B: And I'm Karen. [00:00:03] Speaker A: And you're listening to Every Rom com, the podcast where we have fun taking romantic comedies seriously. This week on Every Rom com, we're continuing our LA Stories series with one of the most popular and critically acclaimed films of all time. [00:00:17] Speaker B: We'll discuss the transition from silent to sound films. [00:00:21] Speaker A: We'll talk about some of the most iconic songs and dances in the history of the movie musical. [00:00:27] Speaker B: We'll explore the careers of Debbie Reynolds and Donald o'. Connor. [00:00:30] Speaker A: And we'll get meta with a movie about movie making as we discuss the 1952 classic Singing in the Rain. Foreigners. And welcome back to Every Rom Com. This week, I'm very excited to introduce to the show one of my oldest and dearest friends who is also incredibly knowledgeable about both film history and the technical aspects of filmmaking and film preservation, Karen Carlson Snyder. Karen works as a film archivist and as the vault manager at Northeast Historic Film in Bucksport, Maine, a a regional film archive dedicated to preserving and sharing moving image history. Karen, thank you so much for finally coming to join me this week. I'm so excited to have you here. [00:01:38] Speaker B: I'm excited to be here. I wanted to come for a while. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Well, I know you're very busy. Like. Like, that's an understatement. So, yeah, just really glad that you're taking the time to be with us today. So first, I'd love for you to tell the audience a little bit about what you do at Northeast Historic Film. [00:01:58] Speaker B: Well, I am technically. I'm the vault manager here. I also run our footage licensing department and a few different grant projects. We're a very small film archive. We have mainly home movies, regional film. I do a lot recently with news film. I am currently working on a grant where we're digitizing news film from 1974 in Boston. So I spent a lot of my days in 1974 Boston. [00:02:34] Speaker A: That sounds sort of relaxing at this point in time, to be honest. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's actually very. There's a lot of echoes of today. It's a lot of people talking about egg prices and inflation and the cost of housing and women's rights and whether or not a president can go to jail. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Well, maybe not relaxing. So what have been, like, some of your favorite projects that you've worked on over the years at the archive? Because I know you've been there for a little while. [00:03:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been here for. It's crazy. I've been here for almost 15 years at this point. When I first came, it was to work on home movies from the 1939 World Fair in New York, which was pretty cool. We digitized pretty. All the footage that we had in the archive from 1938 to 1940. Lots of home movies and lots of footage of the World's Fair. Then a few years later, I wrote a grant for women behind the camera. We did that with the Lesbian Home Movie Project and the Chicago Film Archives. I digitized about 50 collections of women made film. A lot of it was home movies, but we also. There were amateur filmmakers. One of my favorites is Joan Morrison who was just kind of starting to break into making indie films when she randomly died of malaria in her 30s. And we ended up with all of her film. But yeah, it was a really cool project. I mean, one of my favorite pieces is we have an all woman mountaineering expedition climbing mountains in Yellowstone park from 1927. And they're just climbing up this mountain with candles and ropes. And the woman who filmed it was holding, you know, because the 60 millimeter camera was about 20 something pounds and she was like holding it in her teeth while climbing up and then she would start filming. Yeah, it's one of my favorite. One of my favorite films. [00:04:45] Speaker A: That is amazing. Like, wow. So, yeah, it sounds like you get involved in lots of interesting things. I know you've told me over the years, like some of your. Like the footage that is in your archive has ended up in a lot of different places too. Can you tell us more about like that side of it? Like what happens to the footage? [00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah, when I do, the licensing people call us usually from documentary productions, although sometimes, I mean, it's usually stud films, regional films. We also have bigger documentaries right now. Currently we have a lot of footage in Celtic City, which is on hbo. Yeah, we end up. It's a lot of sports footage and a lot of true crime, so a lot of murders in sports. But we also. I'm digitizing something right now for a. For an independent movie that might want to integrate some footage from the 1970s into the film that they're filming. We've given stuff to Ken Burns. Yeah, I don't know, it's been in a lot of different places. Places where. Yeah, people might not expect it since, I mean, we're just a small archive in Bucksport, Maine. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Yeah, but I mean, you know, you never know like where some of these things could end up, what could be useful to people. So that's great. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah, we really randomly. One of our homeovi collections which was filmed by a woman, Adelaide Pearson. She Filmed the first ever color footage of Gandhi because she was in a village. I can't remember the year, but it was, it's in color, so it's probably 1936. Yeah. And like, and we've shared that with the archive in India because it's like I said, you never know what you're going to find in our archive. [00:06:35] Speaker A: And how did you, like, I know you've loved film forever because you and I, like, we watched so many movies together, like in high school. We've known each other since we were like young teenagers and so forth. But like, how did you become interested in working at an archive in particular? [00:06:51] Speaker B: It was kind of a. Interesting route. I thought I was going to study film in college and I did, but I actually ended up getting a history degree. When I went to graduate school, I studied video production. Although also in that graduate degree is when I took my first silent film classes. That's when I fell in love with silent film. But after that I kind of realized I didn't really want to be in film production. I didn't really have the. I don't want to say didn't have the ambition, but I didn't have the kind of attitude that I think you have to have to make it actually in film production. I didn't really know what to do. And then I discovered public history. It's kind of like library school, but for archives. And while I was there, I got really interested in film preservation and then did a film preservation degree at or certificate at the Selznick School at the George Eastman Museum in Rochester, New York. And that's where I really learned everything that I know about film preservation. [00:07:56] Speaker A: No, that's awesome. I love that you like figured this out, figured out this path and yeah, I hope I know you've said that like, along with so many others. Like some of the grants to your organization are endangered right now. And I think it's so shortsighted. I don't know if there's been any progress on that since I last spoke talk to you about that, but. [00:08:14] Speaker B: No. Yeah, we just lost a major NEH grant that was funding us for. It was a three year grant. We're in the middle of it. So this year and next year is looking kind of rocky and we're trying to find other funding sources. I mean, ultimately, you know, only. I think we figured it out and only like 5% of our funding over time has actually come from federal sources. But we're kind of dependent on that because it was given to us a few years ago. And so that's what. Yeah, we are dependent on that for the next few years. And there's people's jobs who depend on that. [00:08:51] Speaker A: Yeah, there's some dark times going on, and it's affecting a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. And I just. I hope we can find a way out of it. I don't know if there's anything listeners could do to help with that. If there is, feel free to let us know. [00:09:04] Speaker B: But, yeah, I mean, we. We did have a. Which is. It's still running. We have a fundraiser. I mean, I work for a nonprofit, and every little bit helps. [00:09:16] Speaker A: So do you have a website for that? Like, I could share it in the show notes or something? [00:09:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say we could add it to the show notes. I have. I have our website. I can also give some links to some of the projects that I've worked on. [00:09:28] Speaker A: Excellent. I will put. I will put any information you want in the show notes because, like, I really want people to know about the work you're doing and how they can support it. So when I have people on the show for the first time, I always ask them, what are some of your favorite rom coms? So you're getting the same question. What are some of your favorite rom coms, Karen? [00:09:46] Speaker B: I tried to limit it to 5. So when Harry Met Sally, Harold and Maude, the Apartment, His Girl Friday, and Down with Love. Some of those kind of rotate. I think When Harry Met Sally and Harold Maude are kind of always at the top, but those are the two. [00:10:06] Speaker A: That, like, I could be with you on. And the rest of them, like, are definitely ones that, like, so many other people always love. And I'm just like, as a rom com, I'm always a little bit. Mmm. About them. But you are not alone at all. Like, a lot of people on the show, actually, past guests have cited all of those, so you're in good company still. [00:10:23] Speaker B: Well, the Apartment is really funny, too, because the comedy aspect, it's such a dark comedy. [00:10:29] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Which I guess Harold Maude is too. [00:10:33] Speaker A: But I am gonna watch the Apartment again soon, though, because I've been re. Watching everything that has Fred McMurray in it, and even though he's not the good guy in it, like, I just. I want to be a completist there. So. Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:44] Speaker B: I went through a real Jack Lemmon phase, really. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:10:49] Speaker B: And I think that's why I love the Apartment so much. It was one of my favorite Jack Lemmon movies. [00:10:52] Speaker A: I mean, that makes sense. That makes sense. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Oh yeah. And then, I don't know, Down With Love. I just love you and McGregor so much. [00:11:00] Speaker A: And then also we're doing our LA stories series right now. So I'm also asking guests, what are some of your favorite movies that are set in la? [00:11:09] Speaker B: Well, it's funny, I mean, because we're talking about Singing in a Rain, which is one of my favorite movies. But I'll do five different ones. The player, LA Confidential, the Fall, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and LA Story. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Yes, most of those I'm just like totally into. I think I saw the Fall once. I haven't seen it in like probably since it came out, so maybe time to revisit. [00:11:34] Speaker B: I love that movie. They just re released it in 4K and I wanted to see it in theaters again but I missed it. But I'm hoping to get the 4K Blu Ray when it comes out. [00:11:46] Speaker A: So Karen, like, I'm really excited to have you on. We're going to talk about Singing in the Rain the moment, but I'll just remind my listeners that we're going to put the information about your film archive in the show notes and perhaps some ways that listeners who are interested could support the work that you do there. So that'll be good. [00:12:03] Speaker B: That would be wonderful. [00:12:05] Speaker A: All right, so before we get started today, a few notes first. As usual, we will have a spoiler free section at the beginning of the episode and we will warn you when the spoilers start. I'd also like to remind everyone to check out our podcast on social media. Our Facebook page is every rom com podcast and blog. Our Instagram is veryromcom, our Twitter handle is Very Romcom Pod. And you can also find us on bluesky veryromcom. And if you really like the show and you want to hear my views in particular on different movies, I'm on letterboxdeneveryromcom and I actually write a review of every single thing I watch, which is kind of weird, I suppose. And as always, you can find the [email protected], send us [email protected] and if you like what you hear, please rate, review and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And finally, finally, if you're able to help support the show financially, you can visit our Buy Me a coffee [email protected] everyromcom. All donations go towards producing the show. And now we're going to get into the episode with a trailer for Singing in the Rain. [00:13:37] Speaker C: Singing in the Rain Just singing in the rain what a glorious feeling we're happy again we'll walk down the lane With a happy refrain and singing Just singing in the rain hold it. [00:14:03] Speaker A: That's it. [00:14:05] Speaker C: Well, Mr. Simpson, we're really rolling. Well, you can stop rolling at once, Don. Lena. All right, everybody, save it. Save it. Tell them to go home. We're shutting down for a few weeks. What? Well, don't just stand there. Tell them. Everybody go home until further notice. What is this? Yeah, what's the matter, R.F. the jazz singer. That's what's the matter. The Jazz Singer. Oh, my darling little mammy. Now, little mammy. My little mammy. Oh, this is no joke, Cosmo. It's a sensation. The public is screaming for more. More what? Talking pictures. Talking pictures? Oh, it's just a freak. Yeah, what a freak. We should have such a freak at this studio. I told you talking pictures were a menace. But no one would listen to me. Don, we're going to put our best feet forward. We're going to make the Dueling Cavalier into a talking picture. Beautiful girl, you're a lovely picture. You were meant for me. [00:15:02] Speaker D: All I do is dream of you. [00:15:04] Speaker A: The whole night through you. [00:15:09] Speaker C: All my lucky characters. Singing in the rain Just singing in the rain. [00:15:41] Speaker A: All right, as you can see for this trailer, or as you can hear from this trailer, there is not a ton of dialogue scenes in this movie. So we basically just heard a. A little medley of different songs from the movie. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I was kind of dancing along. [00:15:55] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. It's so. It's actually hard sometimes for me not to sing along when we play these clips. I don't know. Do you get any of these songs stuck in your head during this process of looking at the film for the podcast? [00:16:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I had fit as a fiddle stuck in my head for a while. [00:16:12] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, I got Good Morning, which is fine with me, but then I got the medley of songs. When they introduced the talking pictures, it's like four different songs and that one drove me kind of nuts. So we'll get to that later. But, yeah, anyway, anyway. Singing in the rain was released April 10, 1952. It was directed by Stanley Donen and Gene Kelly. It was written by Betty Comden and Adolph Green. And it stars Gene Kelly, Debbie Reynolds, Donald o', Connor, Gene Hagen and Sid Charisse. [00:16:47] Speaker B: The basic premise is that Don Lockwood is a silent film star whose world is about to change. With the introduction of talking pictures. Movie magazines publicize a non existent relationship between him and his screechy voiced co star Lena Lamont. But Don meets and falls in love with aspiring actress Kathy Selden. When Don and Lena's first efforts to make a sound picture fail miserably, partly due to Lena's voice, Don's friend and former vaudeville partner Cosmo lands on the idea of having Kathy dub Lena's singing and dialogue. The new dubbed movie looks like it will be a great success. But will Kathy's career and Don and Kathy's new relationship survive its success? [00:17:28] Speaker A: Yes. So there's so much to know about this movie because it's one of, like, you know, the most famous movies ever made. So, of course I overdid it. And I read an entire book about the making of Singing in the Rain. So a lot of the facts in this section, the interesting facts section, and in the whole podcast at large are from the 2009 book Singing in the Rain, the Making of an American Masterpiece, which was written by Pratibha A. Dhabulkar and Earl J. Hess. And I definitely recommend picking up this book if you're a fan of the movie. It was very readable and it had a lot of great information. We are not going to give all the information from the book, so, but we are going to tell a lot of things that I learned from there and a few other sources. So Singing in the Rain came out of the famous Freed unit at MGM Studios, which was a production unit run by Arthur Freed. And the unit specialized in movie musicals and had the talent to make a musical ready to go. This was, you know, partly due to the studio system, so a lot of people were under contract. They were just working for the studio, like, project after project. So a lot of these people had built up expertise over the years, and it just made making musicals a lot more feasible. Prior to becoming a producer, Arthur Freed had been a songwriter with songwriting partner Nasio Herb Brown. Many of the pair's songs had appeared in movies, including MGM's first all sound musical film, The Broadway Melody, in 1929. By the way, have you seen the Broadway Melody? Because I saw it and I was, like, not too impressed by it. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. Isn't that one of those ones that they did, though, just to show that their silent actors could sing and dance, too? [00:19:12] Speaker A: I did not look into it too much, to be honest, but just, like, I just found it. I don't. The story was just kind of like, almost sad and, like. And it won the Oscar, right? Like, I was like, what is this? [00:19:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like I've seen it, but I get a lot of those ones mixed up, honestly. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Anyway, you know, like Melody movies from. Yeah. Late 20s. [00:19:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it seems like there were a number of ones with like the Broadway melody of this year, of that year, just like the Gold Diggers series from Buzz to Berkeley. Yeah. In 1950, Freed asked Betty Cobden and Adolph Green, who are famous writers of musicals for stage and screen, to write an original musical using songs from the Freed and Brown song catalog. And he asked that the movie be called Singing in the Rain after one of those songs. Comden and Green were like, not super enthusiastic about this, but they were also contractually obligated to do it. They were students of film history. So they decided to set the musical during the transition from silent to sound films. And the story for Singing in the Rain was also partly inspired by silent actor John Gilbert, who failed to make the transition from silent to sound films. Although I read it's a little more complicated that there was more going on with just, you know, than his acting style. But anyway, Condon and Green wanted to create a story where an actor did maintain his stardom after a transition. Gene Kelly was brought on to star in the movie and also to co direct with Stanley Donen. The two directors then worked with Comden and Green to revise the script. And these four, if you listen to our episode on on the Town, which we did in our musical series, you would know that these four had previously worked together on 1949's on the Town, a screen adaptation of the stage musical with book and lyrics by Conden and Green, which also starred Kelly and directed and was directed by Kelly and Donnan. So they were like all old friends here. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that movie too. [00:21:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely love that movie. The Singing in the Rain screenplay didn't contain any dance details. That was all left for Gene Kelly to fill in. And the screenplay changed a fair amount as the four worked on the film together and Kelly filled in those dance numbers. Eventually the movie used 16 songs, two of which were newly composed for the movie. The new additions were Moses Supposes and Make Em Laugh. So this movie was a jukebox musical which are, you know, these days often don't go as well. [00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:42] Speaker A: An early conception of the movie had Oscar Levant Kelly's piano playing co star in An American in Paris playing the Cosmo role. But this was changed fairly early on due to Kelly wanting somebody to dance with and they changed it to Donald o'. Connor. And I've read about like, how that would have gone and it just sounds like it would have been bad. There was Like a weird, like, scene where they were going to have him as, you know, a piano playing, you know, partner instead and he was going to do some number where he was playing the piano in the Old west or something and there was a wagon train involved. I was like, no, no, no. I'm really glad that did not happen. Sources vary as to how Debbie Reynolds came to be in the picture. Reynolds has pretty much always said that Louis B. Mayer, head of MGM at the beginning of production, had, quote, unquote, foisted her on Kelly. But Kelly and Donen have both claimed that they picked Reynolds for the role. Like, honestly, I. I kind of would tend to believe Debbie Reynolds a little more on this one. I don't know. Yeah, because she was so new to movies and, like, she. What? She didn't have, like, obvious dancing skills at the time. So, like, I think maybe Kelly and Donna were just claiming, you know, her in the event of the success of the film. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that makes sense. [00:23:01] Speaker A: I don't know. At any rate, you know, it worked out in the end. But once on the film, Reynolds had to play catch up really fast on learning how to dance, particularly for the Good Morning number she performs with Kelly and o'. Connor. Reynolds trained in dancing for two months, for about five hours a day. She trained with Ernie Flatt as well as with Gene Kelly's two dance assistants, Gene Coyne and Carol Haney. And a lot of people by now know that Reynolds has discussed how harsh Gene Kelly was with her during the dancing training. But in later years, she mostly praised his influence. She said, quote, gene taught me discipline and he taught me how to slave. And today, if I don't drop dead from exhaustion after rehearsal, I feel I haven't accomplished a thing. He taught me how to be a perfectionist. Yeah. Like, these days, I think it's almost popular to, like, kind of dislike Gene Kelly for, you know, these stories about him. [00:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah. But I still love him. I don't know. I think that. I think he was just. He was a hard worker and it was a different time. [00:24:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I think he was a hard worker. And also, like, there's the perspective where he was also the director, which is very. Which is very complicated. Yeah. And quite frankly, some of these pictures wouldn't be as good, you know, if he hadn't pushed people hard, probably. I mean. [00:24:21] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that that makes a lot of sense. [00:24:25] Speaker A: So one, kind of. One story that Reynolds has told, though, which is kind of charming is during one difficult rehearsal day, she was crying under a piano when A voice asked her what was wrong. She poured out her troubles about learning to dance and then found out that the voice belonged to Fred Astaire. Astaire was rehearsing for his own movie, the Belle of New York, on another soundstage and invited Reynolds to view his rehearsal process. He showed her that dancing was really hard work, even for him. Reynolds said, his gesture was an enormous help to me. So that's really sweet. [00:24:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And I can see that. Like, I don't know. I guess I haven't actually read that much about Fred Astaire behind the scenes, but he always just seemed maybe a little bit softer and easier to talk to. [00:25:12] Speaker A: When I researched him for our episode on Top Hat, he really did kind of seem like a mensch, like. Like a good dude. Although. Although Ginger Rogers might disagree. So there. There were definitely times when Ginger Rogers was annoyed by him and, like, I can't remember. Well, anyway, there's times when Ginger Rogers said that they would have arguments about things to do with dance and costume, too. So you. [00:25:33] Speaker B: Sometimes I think that makes sense, too, that if you're. I mean, whenever you're with a partner, especially like a creative partner, like, there's going to be. There's going to be some butting of heads. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So production on Singing in the rain ran from April 12, 1951, to November 21, 1951, which, by today's standards, like, I don't think that would happen, basically. [00:25:54] Speaker B: No. [00:25:56] Speaker A: The movie cost MGM $2,540,000, which, again, a big. A big amount for that time, and grossed 7,665,000 in its first run. While the Gene Kelly film An American in Paris had won six Oscars the previous year, including Best Picture. Singing in the Rain was only even nominated for 2 and 1. Neither Gene Hagan was nominated for Best Supporting Actress and Lenny Hayton was nominated for Best Music Scoring of a Musical Picture. The poor showing at the Oscars, like, a lot of people attribute that to the success of An American in Paris. And I think that makes sense because, you know. [00:26:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, you can see that with the Academy that they kind of go through phases. [00:26:43] Speaker A: They're like, oh, we already gave it to those people, so we got to spread it around now. Yeah. [00:26:48] Speaker B: And it's honestly rare that they give it to the. Give it to the right person or the right movie. [00:26:54] Speaker A: Donald o' Connor did win a Golden Globe, however, for Best Actor, Comedy or Musical, and the film was nominated for Best Motion Picture, Comedy or Musical at the Golden Globes, too. So somebody got something. In subsequent years, the film has eclipsed An American in Paris in renown and popularity. It particularly had a special resurgence in the 1970s, when the that's Entertainment documentaries featured scenes from Singing in the Rain alongside other MGM musicals. And Gene Kelly was also one of the hosts of those documentaries. The American Film Institute lists Singing in the rain at number one on their 25 greatest movie musicals of all time and number 10 on their list of 100 greatest American movies overall. And in 2022, the sight and Sound Critics poll placed Singing in the rain as the 10th greatest film ever made. The director's poll, meanwhile, ranked it at number 52. Singing in the Rain has been incredibly influential over the years for both film lovers and choreographers. A special feature on the Blu Ray that I have had dancers and choreographers, including Paula Abdul, Chicago director Rob Marshall, members of the cast of Glee and Usher, among other people, discussing the influence of the film and Gene Kelly's dancing and choreography. I learned from my DVD special feature, by the way, that Paul Abdul and Gene Kelly were friends for a few years, and she went over to have tea with him often. [00:28:18] Speaker B: I love that fact. [00:28:20] Speaker A: And also, you know, that the opposites attract video that she has where she's dancing with the cartoon. She said that was an homage to, like, Gene Kelly in Anchors Away. Dancing with the cartoon. I had no idea. All right. Singing in the Rain has also frequently been referenced by other filmmakers, from the appearance of the Singing in the Rain song in Stanley Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange to more recent and more obvious homages in Damien Chazelle's La La Land and especially Babylon. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we should also mention the Tom Holland homage to Singing in the Rain. [00:28:55] Speaker A: Oh, honestly, I don't know about this. Tell me. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Oh, just that there was, like, that lip sync show and Tom Holland came out and sang to Singing in the Rain and Rihanna's Umbrella. So I guess I don't know the Rihanna song as well as I should, but I will say that I see it all over social media and, like, every time it's on, I have to watch it. And I see a lot of people. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Saying that you're definitely more in touch with the Zeitgeist in this case than I am, because that seems like a newer thing. So there you go. [00:29:27] Speaker B: It is much newer. You should definitely look it up, though. [00:29:29] Speaker A: All right. [00:29:32] Speaker B: Yeah. The Tom Holland Singing in the Rain dance is pretty amazing. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Okay. I didn't even know he could dance. Yeah. [00:29:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:29:40] Speaker A: All right, so let's talk a little Bit about how Singing in the Rain has influenced us now. So we're going to talk about our general opinion and just kind of like, when did you see this film? Like, when do you feel like it came into your awareness? Like, how was it like a big hit for you when you were younger and you know, how's it been with you over the years? Like, where has it stood in your list of great films? [00:30:02] Speaker B: Funnily, I think you lent it to me. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Really? [00:30:07] Speaker B: Yeah, like in high school, I feel like I watched it because either you lent me the movie to watch or you told me to watch it. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Huh. [00:30:16] Speaker B: And I'll say, like, when I was younger, I was a big. I was very into Fred Astaire and I didn't like Gene Kelly as much. I think I have. That's kind of flipped over the years. I mean, I love both of them, but I think that I was, I was much more of a Fred Astaire fan when I was younger. And so when I first saw this, I really liked it, but it didn't really stick with me that much. And then, I don't know, I guess just over the years I. It's such a fun movie to go back to. Like there's. It just makes you happy. Yeah, it's such a feel good movie. And I love all the dance scenes. I love all the music. I love the subject matter. [00:31:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, has it been in your. At any time? Would you say in your like top 10 or top 20 films or like. [00:31:08] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, it's. It's definitely in my, it's, it's in my top five. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:31:12] Speaker B: So I think, yeah, I think on my letterbox. It's in my. It's one of the ones that's on my like top five. [00:31:19] Speaker A: Nice. Yeah. So my story was Singing in the Rain. Like, I honestly, I don't remember a time when I wasn't aware of it. I think, I think it's just one of those movies that my parents really liked. So it was whenever it played on tv, they probably had it on. And then, you know, we had a VCR pretty early on and we taped it. So I watched that so many times when I was a kid. I watched that and on the Town quite a bit when I was a kid and I think I actually watched on the Town slightly more. But I've always loved Singing in the Rain. It's not actually in my like, you know, top 10 movies of all time. I do like the Sound of Music better as a musical. But yeah, like, I really appreciate its artistry it's such a sort of. It's an effortless film to watch, you know, like, you just. You're carried along by it. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a movie that I, I put on over the years. If I am. If I'm feeling like, sad or depressed and don't want to wallow in that, I actually want to, like, cheer myself up. This is definitely one of the movies I will put on because it just always makes me happy. [00:32:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I love the songs too. Like, I think they're like. When I was younger, there were certain parts of the movie that I didn't like as much. Like, I really like. Was not a big fan of the whole Broadway Melody, Broadway Rhythm, and the Dance with Sid Sharice. When I was younger, I was just kind of like, what is. What is she doing here? Like, let's get back to Debbie Reynolds. But I mean, now I can kind of see the complete movie is all being, you know, worthwhile and, you know, liking to have it there. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely. When I was younger, I really did not like that said cerise part, especially when it like went off and they're dancing with the really flowy veil. But I think I appreciate that a lot more. Like, I watched it just last week and I was like, I actually really like this dance. [00:33:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, like, now that I'm like, evaluating it more is, like seeing the choreography more and like knowing more about Gene Kelly's total film output. You know, like the way the different dances he's done over time, that's really enriched my experience of it too. And this particular viewing, I really paid a lot more attention to Donald o' Connor too, especially after learning a little bit about him. So now we're going to talk a little bit about the cast and crew of Singing in the Rain. We already talked about Gene Kelly's career in Every Rom com episode 59 on on the Town. So if you'd like to learn more about Gene Kelly, check out that episode. And. And it's a really good episode in general. Like, I think if you're interested in Singing in the Rain, you should definitely learn about on the Town. Anyway, it is. [00:33:54] Speaker B: I just re listened to it last week. [00:33:56] Speaker A: You did? [00:33:57] Speaker B: I did. [00:33:59] Speaker A: And now Karen is going to tell us a little bit about Debbie Reynolds. [00:34:04] Speaker B: Debbie Reynolds was born Mary Frances Reynolds April 1, 1932 in El Paso, Texas. Depending on the source, Reynolds family moved to California in 1939 or just when she was a few months old. She was discovered by talent scout in 1948 when she won the Miss Burbank beauty contest. Her first movie was June Bride in 1948 and her first significant role was in Three Little Words in 1950. She also had a big success in 1950 singing a song called Abba Dabba Honeymoon in the movie Two Weeks With Love. Now I want to look up that. Look up that song and hear what it sounds like. [00:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like it should be. It sounds like it should be in that. Why, I can't even think of the TV show. What's the TV show? Yabba dabba doo. [00:34:52] Speaker B: Flintstones. [00:34:53] Speaker A: Yes, it sounds like it should be in the Flintstones. [00:34:57] Speaker B: Oh, that song reached number three on the Billboard charts in 1951 and sold over a million copies, so it must be a good song. Singing in the rain was Reynolds sixth movie and her breakout role. She was only 18 at the time. In 1953, she danced and acted with Singing in the Rain co star Donald o' Connor in the musical I Love Melvin. Many of her 1950s roles after singing in the Rain cast her as a teenager or a very young woman, including the affairs of Dobie Gillis, Susan Slept Here, the Mating Game. And Tammy and the Bachelor. And Tammy and the Bachelor featured Reynolds singing the song Tammy, which reached number one on the Billboard charts. Some of her other 1950s movies include the Tender Trap, the Catered Affair and Bundle of Joy, the latter of which she co starred in with her husband at the time, Eddie Fisher. And Fisher and Reynolds were married in 1955. They had two kids, Todd and Carrie. But in 1959, Fisher left Reynolds for Elizabeth Taylor, who was one of her close friends. Taylor and Reynolds later reconciled when Taylor was married to Richard. Burton and Reynolds had also remarried, eventually working together on the made for TV film these Old Broads, which was written by Carrie Fisher. Reynolds would go on to marry two more times to a businessman and a real estate developer. In 1962, Reynolds began a long stretch of performing in Vegas. The same year she appeared in how the west was won. In 1964, she was nominated for an Oscar for the title role in the Unsinkable Molly Brown. I love that movie. Other 1960s roles include the Rat Race, Divorce, American Style, the title role in the Singing Nun and How Sweet it is. In 1970, Reynolds had her own show on TV for a year but quit doing the show because she objected to cigarette advertisements being run during it, which I think is pretty great. In 1973, she voiced Charlotte in the animated film Charlotte's Web, which I watched on repeat as a kid. [00:37:06] Speaker A: Yeah, Me too. Me. I think everybody in our sort of generation kind of did. [00:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I now live living in Maine. That's the fair from Charlotte's Web is in Blue Hill, Maine, which is very close to where I live and I go to that fair every year. Reynolds also made her Broadway debut in 1973 with the musical Irene and Carrie Fisher also made her Broadway debut in that same musical. Reynolds was nominated for a Tony for that performance. She appeared in several more stage productions, including Annie get yout Gun and Reprising her role in the Unsinkable Molly Brown for a US national touring production. She has one IMDb writing credit for a 1983 aerobics video called Do It Debbie's Way, which I now really want to find. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Me too. I want to do it Debbie's way. [00:37:59] Speaker B: Me too. She also wrote two memoirs, Debbie My Life in 1988 and Unsinkable A Memoir in 2013. In the mid-90s, she co starred with Albert Brooks as the title character in his film Mother and appeared in the Coming out rom com In N Out. She had a reoccurring role on Will and Grace, for which she was nominated for an Emmy in 2000, and in the late 90s through the 2000s, she had a reoccurring role in Disney's Halloween town movies. I have not seen those. [00:38:31] Speaker A: Me neither. I wonder if they're good. I don't know. [00:38:34] Speaker B: I don't know. I'm always kind of skeptical of Disney Channel movies, but maybe they are good. She had a variety of other TV and movie roles in her later career, including doing voice work for rugrats movies and TV series. Her last film role was in the TV movie Behind the Candelabra in 2013. In addition to acting, Reynolds was also a collector of movie memorabilia. Her collection got its start when she bought many pieces in a 1970 MGM auction, which contained items such as Julie Andrews guitar from Sound and Music and a copy of the Ruby slippers from wizard of Oz. After repeatedly trying and failing to interest the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences in displaying her collection in a museum and exhibiting the items in a Las Vegas hotel she owned for a number of years, Reynolds eventually auctioned off many of her pieces in 2011 and 2014, which I find very, very sad. Especially since, I mean, the Academy Museum opened recently. Reynolds son Todd Fisher inherited remaining items in the collection, and some exhibitions have occurred, including an EXHI in Vegas, and items finally were exhibited in the Academy Museum, which named a section after her, the Debbie Reynolds Conservation Studio Debbie Reynolds was quite close to her celebrity daughter, Carrie Fisher, and they lived next door to each other for years. A glimpse of that relationship is shown in the 2016 documentary about their lives. Bright lights. Reynolds died Dec. 28, 2016, of a stroke one day after her daughter Carrie Fisher died of a cardiac arrest. I was so sad when that happened. [00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's very touching, though, in some ways. Like, she loved her daughter so much and she just didn't want to, like, I guess, carry on. [00:40:27] Speaker B: I know. It's just. Yeah, I guess it's touching and it's also just so sad. [00:40:32] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, now I'm gonna now talk about Donald o'. Connor. And, like, of all the biographies we've done on this show, this has got to be one of the. The wildest beginnings. Okay. Like, like, count on these early film actors, though, to have some colorful pasts. Okay. So Donald O' Connor was born around. Born around August 28, 1925. They're not even clear on the date in Illinois. He was literally born on the road as his family were traveling vaudevillians. Oconnors father had been a Ringling Brothers circus acrobat before becoming a dancer and comedy comedian in vaudeville. His mother had been just 12 years old when she married his father and had her first child at 13. [00:41:16] Speaker B: That is crazy. [00:41:17] Speaker A: Yes. Like, O' Connor was not her first child. I think he was her seventh. So, like, she had gotten a bit older by that time. But my goodness. Ok's mom had been a tightrope walker and bareback rider in the circus, and she played accompaniment for the vaudeville act. So right there, like, these are. These are some beginnings right here. Donald o' Connor first appeared on stage at just three days old because his mother needed to keep him with her as she played accompaniment for the vaudeville show. And he began performing at 13 months old. His first performances involved being held up while his feet moved to the music. Yes. So he had some tragedy in his early life. His father died of a heart attack before he was even one year old, and his sister actually died too. I can't remember how old he was, but his sister died when he was quite young, too. His mother reorganized the act after his father died in order to support the family. So his whole childhood and youth was basically spent performing. The family act included acrobatic stunts, singing and dancing. O' Connor specialized in tap dance. He first appeared in movies in an uncredited role in it can't Last Forever in 1937. In 1938, he appeared in Sing you Sinners with Fred McMurray and Bing Crosby, which I regret to say I have not seen yet. Like, it's right up my alley with the whole Fred McMurray thing. I gotta get on that. Some of his other 30s films included Tom Sawyer, Detective, Million Dollar Legs and Beau Gest. An appearance in What's Cookin in 1942 led to a Hollywood contract. He was drafted into the army air Corps in 1943, but he spent most of his time entertaining troops during World War II. After the war, O' Connor appeared in movies including Something in the Wind and Yes, sir, that's My baby. And in 1950, O' Connor appeared in the first of a series of six comedies opposite a talking mule. The first movie was called Francis after the Mule. Sequels included Francis Goes to West Point and Francis in the Navy. And I did watch a little bit of. I think it was called Francis Joins the Wax. Have you seen these movies? It's basically. It's the precursor to Mr. Ed, basically. [00:43:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I've seen at least one of them before. Yeah, I kind of love talking animal movies, so. [00:43:45] Speaker A: Well, apparently o' Connor got sick of them after a while. Like, he joked that the mule got more fan mail, so he was like, I'm not going to do them anymore. Singing in The Rain Remains OConnors most prominent film role, and he won a Golden Globe for his performance. As we mentioned, other important roles in the 50s included Call Me Madam, there's no business like Show Business. Anything Goes. And we already talked about I Love Melvin, where he reappeared where he appeared again with Debbie Reynolds. And this movie. I watched this for the podcast. It has an amazing dance on roller skates that Donald o' Connor performs like. And you know, Gene Kelly also did a dance on roller skates and it's always fair weather. And I would say the o' Connor dance measures up to the Gene Kelly dance. Perhaps not in scope, but in, like, the technical aspects. It is quite good. [00:44:35] Speaker B: Although I really want to watch that. I love roller dancing. Well, I love anything on roller skates. [00:44:39] Speaker A: But yeah, I mean, the movie as a whole, like, it wasn't good enough for me to put in the double feature recommendations, but perhaps I'll just put a link to the clip on YouTube that I want that you can also watch with the roller skating. Yeah, pretty good. Let's see. In 1957, O' Connor starred in a biopic of Buster Keaton, which apparently wasn't too successful, but I'm curious about that. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I love Buster Keaton and he was also a Vaudevillian. [00:45:05] Speaker A: So there you go. And in the 50s, O' Connor also began to work in TV. He won an Emmy for hosting the Colgate Comedy Hour and eventually hosted his own show, the Donald O' Connor show, from 1954 to 1955. O' Connor never entirely disappeared off of TV screens. He had guest spots on TV shows throughout the 60s through the 90s on shows including Police Story, the Love Boat, which I believe he had four different appearances on the Love Boat, highway to Heaven, Frasier, and even Tales from the Crypt, which also. I want to see that. [00:45:39] Speaker B: I hope he was tamp dancing in Tales From. [00:45:41] Speaker A: That wouldn't be amazing. Yes. Over the years, though, o' Connor unfortunately developed a drinking problem. But he became sober for Good in 1979. And then in 1981, he appeared in his first movie role in Sixteen Years in Ragtime. His last movie was out to Sea in 1997, which, like, that's. That was kind of like an old men on the boat movie, if I'm not mistaken. [00:46:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that was one of those. Mattha Lemon. [00:46:11] Speaker A: So can I assume you've seen it because of Jack Lemmon? [00:46:14] Speaker B: Yes. Well, I also remember. I remember going to see that at Carmike. I believe I might have worked there. [00:46:21] Speaker A: When that movie was out. [00:46:22] Speaker B: It's like grumpy old men on a boat. [00:46:24] Speaker A: Nice. I might watch it just for like Donald o', Connor, to be honest. Although it's pretty minor role from what I understand. [00:46:30] Speaker B: But, yeah, I mean, I don't think I saw it outside of seeing it in the theater in 1997. [00:46:39] Speaker A: So. In addition to his film and TV career, O' Connor also appeared on Broadway and in other stage productions. One of the highlights was his appearance in a 1983 revival of Showboat. He also worked as a composer. He conducted his own composition, Reflections d' Une Comique, for the Los Angeles Philharmonic in 1956, and some of his other compositions were performed by the Brussels Symphony Orchestra. In terms of his personal life, he was married twice, first in 1944 to Gwendolyn Carter for 10 years, and they had one daughter together. And then in 1956, he married Gloria Noble. They stayed together and had three children. O' Connor died of heart failure September 27, 2003. So altogether a very interesting life for Donald O' Connor and Debbie Reynolds. Really? [00:47:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:30] Speaker A: So some other important cast and crew of the film, co director Stanley Donen, Betty Comden and Adolph Green, the writers, which some. One of these days I really need to cover those, too. We'll have to do Another musical by them at some point. Jean Hagan plays Lena Lamont, and Sid Charisse is listed in the credits as just Dancer, but she basically plays like, a gangster's girlfriend in the Broadway Melody number. [00:47:54] Speaker B: I also point out it's a gangster whose main thing is flipping coins. And he doesn't know how to flip a coin. He just, like, throws it in the air. It always really bothers me. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Don't tell him that, Karen. He'll be angry. [00:48:09] Speaker B: His, like, Stooges can flip it, but he can't flip it. [00:48:13] Speaker A: I've never noticed this. So, like, good on you. Good on you, Karen. So now we're going to get into the opening of the film. And I guess I was really struck this time by the credit sequence. I think it's, like, so dynamic, like, just. It begins like their backs are tote to you, and, like, they're in the yellow raincoats and they've got the black umbrellas. So, like, the color scheme is really good. You've got the blue and the kind of the fake rain, and then, like, the yellow and the black. Their credits appear on the umbrellas one by one, and then they turn around and they're just kind of like, when you look at it, when you, like, really look at it, they're not even really moving forward, but they appear to be walking towards you. They must have been on a treadmill. Yeah, yeah. But they're just kind of doing this little jaunty walk slash dance and singing. Singing in the rain. And it's just. You're just immediately in this movie. [00:49:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I actually really love when opening credits can, like, get you set up right away because, I mean, that's your intro to the movie. It should catch you from. Right from the beginning. [00:49:17] Speaker A: And then after the little bit that they sing all together, singing in the rain, it's the music changes to an instrumental of you Are My Lucky Star, which plays over the remaining credits. And yeah, it's. It's beautiful looking. Like, I think Karen, you know more about the whole, like, the Technicolor aspect of the film. I think the color is coming into play, like, immediately in this movie. Wouldn't you say, like, just the way they use color? [00:49:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And I. I mean, I love Technicolor. I love just kind of the. The super bright colors of it. And I also love when you can. When you can see, like, vintage prints, vintage Technicolor prints on the screen. It really. It just. The color just pops right out. [00:49:59] Speaker A: So is it different than when you're watching it? Like, on your TV at home, then. [00:50:04] Speaker B: It can be because, I mean, they. They do a lot of color correction and kind of change things around whenever things are released on different mediums. I mean, in a vintage print can have some fading, although stuff from this era generally doesn't. That's more. Once you get into some of the later stocks, but especially if you can see something on, like, nitrate that's Technicolor, it's usually just pristine. It just looks really amazing. [00:50:32] Speaker A: Yeah. This is one I would love to see in a theater someday. Yeah. If possible. [00:50:36] Speaker B: I know I've never seen this one in a theater, and I would love to. [00:50:40] Speaker A: So we're opening the movie. Then after the opening credits, they opens with a film premiere. And it's. It puts you into the time period right away. It's 1927, and this is the premiere of the Royal Rascal. And, Karen, you talked about, like, you read a little bit about some of the references they show as people come into this film premiere, because we're seeing kind of like a woman is at a microphone, and she's introducing people as they come in. And can you tell us a little bit about some of these personalities? Yeah. [00:51:10] Speaker B: So I read about this in an article from March 2010, History Today called Breaking the Sound Barrier by Mark Juttery. I think, you know, I'd seen this movie so many times, and I don't think I realized. I don't think I realized who some of these people were supposed to be parodying, which I think 1952 audiences probably would have picked up on that right away. [00:51:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:33] Speaker B: So. Yeah. So the woman who's hosting the premiere, Dora Bailey, was inspired by Hearst newspaper columnist and critic Luella Parsons. And then as some of the stars are coming in and walking onto the red carpet, there's Zelda Zanders, who also shows up throughout the movie. And she was based on silent film star Clara Bow. Olga Mara was based on real actress Pola Negri, who famously dismissed talkies in 1927 as a fad and a curiosity. I think he also mentioned that the. I think it's the silent film director who's in that little montage when Don's talking about his past was supposed to be a little bit based off of Busby Berkeley. [00:52:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I got that from my book, too. Yeah. The directors. Yeah. Busby Berkeley. Yeah. [00:52:23] Speaker B: So, yeah. [00:52:25] Speaker A: And then we have Cosmo come in after all these stars, and everybody's prepared to be, like, excited. The audience outside the premiere is prepared to be excited. And then he realized that he's a nobody. Poor Cosmo. [00:52:36] Speaker B: I know. And he's probably the most fun person there. [00:52:40] Speaker A: And then Don and Lena are the ones they're waiting for. They're the stars of the Royal Rascal, and Dora Bailey is hyping them up as a couple. Like, when are you two. Are there wedding bells in the future, etc. Etc. And then we go into this really fantastic fake backstory for. For Don where Dora Bailey asks him, like, tell us, like, the story of your success or something. And, yeah, this sequence is so brilliant because it shows the disparity between the image of the Hollywood star, which, at the time, it was much easier for them to control their images and what really happened. [00:53:14] Speaker B: I know. I love this part. And it's also. When I was just watching it last week with my husband, he's like, that would never happen today because, of course, everyone would know exactly where people came from. [00:53:26] Speaker A: Yeah. He's trying to claim that he and Cosmo went to the finest music and dancing schools, like a conservatory. And meanwhile, you see. See them, like, in a bar room, like, dancing for, like, nickels or something. [00:53:38] Speaker B: Maybe. [00:53:39] Speaker A: Maybe pennies, actually, with inflation, I don't know. [00:53:42] Speaker B: I'm sure it was pennies. [00:53:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And they. And they're performing the song that you said you got stuck in your head. Fit is a fiddle. [00:53:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And I actually, I. I love that dance, too, when they're playing each other's fiddles and going back and forth like it's. It's. It's one of my favorites of the film. [00:53:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Technically, like, it looks easy. They make it look easy, but it looks really, like it would actually be very difficult. [00:54:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And I love that at the end of it, they get booed, and I'm like, what? [00:54:09] Speaker A: They probably. Like that audience probably wants, like, the dancing girls to come out or something. Oh, yeah. Yeah. [00:54:16] Speaker B: But, yeah, I was just like, why are you booing that? That was amazing. [00:54:20] Speaker A: Yeah, and this is a really great exposition, too, because you also. Then you do get Don's backstory, like, how did he get into Hollywood? And they show, like, Don and Cosmo playing accompaniment for a silent movie scene. But then the stuntman kind of, like, gets knocked out, and Don subs in for him and he becomes a stuntman, and that leads to him getting a part in a movie with Lena. And you see that Lena was only interested in him once he became, you know, somebody. Not just a stuntman. So you get this whole history of them as a three. As three people together, working together. [00:54:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's It, It's. It's a brilliant sequence, really. Like just the. The disparity between what they're saying and what you're seeing. And they put a lot of exposition into a very small amount of time. [00:55:09] Speaker A: So all the movie premiere scenes in the. In Singing in the Rain were shot at Grauman's Chinese Theater, which opened in 1927 on Hollywood Boulevard. So this would have been like pretending that this was like, the opening, like, the first year that that movie theater was actually there. But to portray this premiere, some footage from the 1937 version of a Star Is Born was actually used to establish the crowd environment. And this was super exciting to me. The Royal Rascal, they actually took. And I don't know if you knew this, Karen, they took footage from Gene Kelly's color version of the Three Musketeers in 1948 and turned it into black and white and used it parts of it for the Royal Rascal so that, you know, Gene Kelly didn't have to leap around with a sword. [00:55:50] Speaker B: Again, I did not know that. [00:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I ended up watching it, and it also did not make my cut for double feature recommendations. But, you know, if you want to watch a lot more of Gene Kelly leaping around with a sword, there you go. [00:56:04] Speaker B: And who doesn't want to see that? [00:56:07] Speaker A: I mean, that part was good. I. I find. I think I have to resign myself to the fact that I don't really find the three Must Katir's story that interesting, though. So I've watched many versions of it and never have been, like, super excited by it, unfortunately. [00:56:20] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I never really have either, but I do like watching people dance around with swords. [00:56:26] Speaker A: So, yeah, he does a really good job at it. Yep. So at the premiere of the Royal Rascal, we see the audience really loving the film. We see Don and Lena kind of at the height of their fame at that point. And then we get the big joke behind the scenes at the premiere where Lena wants to talk to the audience and her voice is revealed being totally different from, like, the elegant screen presence she has on the camera. Do you feel like doing your Lena Lamont impersonation or. [00:56:58] Speaker B: Oh, I'm not. I'm not very good. [00:57:02] Speaker A: I. I can't remember which line she does behind the screen at this point, but she wants to go out and make it speech. And she says, like, something like, what, do you think I'm dumb or something? Or something like that. I. I did. I done a better impersonation. And when I did it, when I really nailed it at One point, my cat jumped off my lap. She was not pleased. [00:57:22] Speaker B: She. She did not like the. The screechy voice. [00:57:26] Speaker A: So this is really, like. You know, this is setting up like if you're an audience in 1952 you know that 1927 is the end of the silent films. This is already in your head. And now you hear Lina Lamont. And so I think the audience in 1952 would already be like, oh, trouble's on the way. Yeah. [00:57:41] Speaker B: And, you know, I was thinking about this. I was like, audiences watching this in 1952. It's. It's really recent history for them. I mean, I guess not completely recent but it'd be like if we were watching a movie set in, like, 2003, you know. [00:57:53] Speaker A: Oh, my God. That's wild. So after the premiere, they're headed to a party at R.F. simpson. Simpson, the head of the studio's house. Cosmo's driving Don to the party, but his car breaks down. And as soon as his car breaks down Don is basically swarmed by fans and escapes from the fans by jumping onto a moving streetcar and then jumping into Kathy's car. And I have a little clip that I'm gonna play of Don and Kathy's first meeting. [00:58:24] Speaker C: I very much like to know whose hospitality I'm enjoying. [00:58:27] Speaker D: Seldom. Kathy Selden. [00:58:29] Speaker C: Enchanted, Miss Seldon. I'm sorry I frightened you. I was getting a little too much love from my adoring fans. [00:58:37] Speaker D: Oh, that's what you were running away from? They did that to you? That's terrible. [00:58:46] Speaker C: Yes. Yes, it is. Isn't is Terrible? Well, we movie star get the glory. I guess we have to take the little heartaches that go with it. People think we lead lives of glamour and romance but we're really lonely. Terribly lonely. [00:59:07] Speaker D: Mr. Lockwood, I really can't tell you how sorry I am about taking you for a criminal before. But it was understandable under the circumstances. I knew I'd seen you. [00:59:15] Speaker C: Which of my pictures have you seen? [00:59:18] Speaker D: I don't remember. I saw one once. [00:59:22] Speaker C: You saw one once? [00:59:23] Speaker A: Yes. [00:59:24] Speaker D: I think you were dueling. And there was a girl. Lena Lamont. No, I don't go to the movies much. If you've seen one, you've seen them all. [00:59:34] Speaker C: Oh, thank you. [00:59:35] Speaker D: Oh, no offense. Movies are entertaining enough for the masses but the personalities on the screen just don't impress me. I mean, they don't talk, they don't act. They just make a lot of dumb show. Well, you know. Like that. [00:59:51] Speaker C: You mean, like what I do? [00:59:53] Speaker D: Well, yes. Here we are. Sunset In Camden. [01:00:00] Speaker A: Wait a minute. [01:00:01] Speaker D: You mean I'm not an actor? [01:00:02] Speaker C: Pantomime on the screen isn't acting? [01:00:04] Speaker D: Of course not. Acting means great parts, wonderful lines. Speaking of glorious words. Shakespeare. Shakespeare. [01:00:10] Speaker A: Ibsen. [01:00:10] Speaker C: Tell me, what's your lofty mission in life that lets you sneer at my humble profession? [01:00:16] Speaker D: I'm an actress. On the stage. [01:00:18] Speaker C: Oh, on the stage. Well, I'd like to see you act. What are you in right now? I could brush up in my English or bring along an interpreter. That is, if they'd let in a movie actor. [01:00:28] Speaker D: Well, I'm not in a play right now, but I will be. I'm going to New York. [01:00:31] Speaker C: Oh, you're going to New York. And then someday we'll all hear of you, won't we? Kathy Selden as Juliet, as Lady Macbeth, as King Lear. You'll have to wear a beard for that one, of course. [01:00:41] Speaker D: Oh, you can laugh if you want to, but at least the stage is a dignified profession. Now, what have you got to be so conceited about? You're nothing but a shadow on film. A shadow? You're not flesh and blood. [01:00:50] Speaker C: Oh, no. [01:00:51] Speaker A: Stop. [01:00:52] Speaker C: What could I do to you? [01:00:53] Speaker D: I'm only a shadow you keep away from me. Just because you're a big movie star, wild party, swimming pools. You expect every girl to fall a dead faint at your feet. [01:01:00] Speaker A: Well, don't. [01:01:00] Speaker D: Don't you touch me. [01:01:01] Speaker C: Fear not, sweet lady. I will not molest you. I am but a humble jester. And you, you are too far above me. Farewell, little Barrymore. I must tear myself from your side. [01:01:16] Speaker A: And what I've left out at the end there is. He tears himself away from the car and his coat rips in the car. So. So I really love this meeting. This is a classic, basically romance meeting. Because a lot of romances will have two people meet and immediately dislike each other. And so you get that little bit of enemies to lovers tension going on. [01:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I. I really like this too. I don't know. I don't. I don't usually like the trope of disliking each other and then liking each other, but I do actually like their play at the party after this, so. Or they're like the way that they play off each other at the party after this, which wouldn't happen without this meet cute. [01:01:58] Speaker A: So I also like it though, because what you don't, you know, what you can't see when we're just playing the clip for you on the podcast is that when he's in the car with her he's trying to, like, kind of put his arm around her and, like, come on to her. And he just met her, and she really takes him down a peg. Like, the comments she's making about his acting aren't necessarily things she really believes you find out later. But she's definitely deploying these comments to piss him off because she's disgruntled that he's trying to, like, you know, put her hand. [01:02:27] Speaker B: Put his hands on her, which I do like that. I mean, good for her. Like, he is kind of. Kind of full of himself there, so. [01:02:37] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:02:38] Speaker B: I think he definitely needs his ego popped a little bit. [01:02:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, he's used to, like having. Yeah, he's used to having women literally faint at his feet. Like, you see someone faint in the film premiere scene when she comes in on the scene. So. Yes. And really, like, he becomes very obsessed with Kathy's character, like, after this. So maybe because she didn't immediately fall for him. Oh, man. You have strange ways. [01:03:02] Speaker B: Yes. [01:03:04] Speaker A: So, yeah. And I just want to point out during their drive, like, in. If you look in the background, you can see real Beverly Hills street scenes as they're driving. So if you want to see. So many of these LA movies that we've been covering don't actually have a ton of location shots and this one included, but there is a little bit. A little bit here. Okay. So we talked a little bit about how Kathy and Don first meet in the movie, and now we are at RF Simpson's party with all the movie stars from the premiere, and there's a demonstration of the talking picture that he unveils to his crowd. What did you think of this demonstration film, Karen? Have you seen any of these early demonstration films? I have not. [01:03:46] Speaker B: I feel like I have. I think I saw one when I was at George Eastman Museum. And I know that, like, where it. Especially where it unsyncs with the phonograph. [01:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:58] Speaker B: Like, I know that there were documented. Documented things of that happening at screenings during the time. [01:04:06] Speaker A: The funny part for me of it isn't even so much, like, going out of sync. It's the way that the man in the demonstration is, like, standing so close to the camera and his annunciating so carefully with his mouth. Like, his mouth is, like, right in this camera. [01:04:22] Speaker B: Yes. I hadn't really thought about that. Which I guess makes sense, because I know that. Which I guess we'll probably talk about later, how focused on diction they were once studios were, once they started having talking pictures. [01:04:37] Speaker A: It makes it look like so funny. Like, it's just. You just like, why would anybody talk like that? [01:04:46] Speaker B: I do like it though, because it is, you know, early sound stuff was really just a. It was like a gimmick, you know? And I mean, that's what it is. They're demonstrating it, but there's nothing about that that made them think it was going to revolutionize everything, you know? [01:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Like the people at the party in the movie are all very dismissive. One of the stars calls it vulgar, for example. Yeah. And. Yeah. And then I think, like, you probably know this because you're a silent film fan, but I was reading in the book, I decided to read a little bit of. For research the Speed of Sound about how silent films had really sort of perfected their art. Like this was a high point in silent filmmaking and how artistic and beautiful they could be. And then to come in with this like janky looking, like, you know, demo film. [01:05:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I know it's. Which I guess we'll probably talk about that a little bit later too. But yeah, silent films really had like. They were such an art form and it really is kind of sad that they got cut off at their height. [01:05:47] Speaker A: So now after this little demo is given, RF Simpson brings in a giant cake and Kathy, who just met dawn and talked about being a serious actress, jumps out of the cake, much to Don's delight. I really like this movie. Made me think I was going to see a lot more parties with ladies jumping out of cakes in my life and it is not once happened. [01:06:10] Speaker B: Well, I also, I really love their little outfits that they're wearing with the. I don't know if they're throwing candy at people, but like the integrated pouch into the side. [01:06:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I never noticed that actually until this late latest viewing for some reason. I don't know why. Like, yeah, they're little pink, sort of like almost swimsuit looking things with little pink caps. Yeah. And then like a pouch like you said, where they're throwing candy or something. [01:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And somehow they have this like big like bowl on the side of their hips. But it still looks great. I don't know, I. I really love it. [01:06:48] Speaker A: And then they go into their song performance, which is All I Do is Dream of youf, which I really love this song. I did end up watching one of its earlier appearances in Sadie McKee that has Joan Crawford in it. And really in that movie, I felt it did not play as a very romantic song. Like the. The context in which it was used was not very romantic and it also wasn't so jaunty, like it is here. So they really did a lot with the way they arranged the song to make it kind of stand out in this movie. Have you seen the other appearances of this song at all, or. [01:07:19] Speaker B: No, I haven't. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Yeah, like this. The thing I've noticed about this movie in general is I. Every time I went back to watch one of the songs in a different movie, it was better in this movie. [01:07:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I do know. And one of the things that I read they did. He pointed out that they did want to take the songs that they were reusing from the 20s and 30s and they wanted to add some, like, kind of 1950s flair to it, make sure it was a better recording and it was just better, more entertaining. [01:07:52] Speaker A: So, yeah, in this case, I think they speak, speed up the song a little bit and make it more of a dance number. So, like, that definitely changes its tenor. [01:08:02] Speaker B: I do love this scene. It kind of, like you said, girls just jumping out of cakes. And I was. My husband and I were watching it and we were like, I wish my work parties included. Yeah. Like, girls jumping out of takes and throwing candy at us from little pouches while singing songs like. [01:08:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's probably frowned upon in the modern workplace, but it's kind of a shame. [01:08:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. [01:08:25] Speaker A: It could be men jumping out of cakes, too. Just like people jumping out of cakes in general. [01:08:30] Speaker B: Anybody jumping out of cakes and singing jaunty numbers. It does. It doesn't have to be all girls. I would actually love to see this with a mixed group of people. [01:08:41] Speaker A: So one interesting thing, too, about this scene. If you look to Debbie Reynolds. Right. So the left of the screen, but Debbie Reynolds. Right. Jean Coyne, who's one of Kelly's dance assistants and who is his future wife, also is in the All I do is dream of you number. She's dancing there and she's also elsewhere in the film. And once you know what Gene Coyne looks like, you can pretty much find her in all these, like, Gene Kelly movies of this era, like, just here or there. I'm pretty sure she's the woman in the pirate who gets the cigarette kiss. [01:09:14] Speaker B: I love the pirate. I didn't know that. I didn't know that she was in it. [01:09:18] Speaker A: Yeah, she. She appears in, like, as an extra background dancer in a lot of his films. [01:09:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. [01:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:25] Speaker B: I'm gonna have to start looking for her now. [01:09:27] Speaker A: It's exciting. I'm like, yay, there she is. And let's see. Oh, and also originally, this Song There was a ballad version of All I Do is Dream of youf that was actually filmed, recorded in film for the movie. But it was taken out because it, they felt that it kind of slowed the movie down too much and it was meant to be him thinking about Kathy after he leaves the party, walking around his house. I have a record album recording of it actually. Yeah, it's on. They put it on the soundtrack, but yeah, they lost the actual film footage. So you can't even watch like the takes of it or anything. [01:10:01] Speaker B: Oh, that's too bad. [01:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah. So now the scene ends. So Kathy does her little dance. Don tries to waylay her after the dance and Kathy gets mad at him, making fun of her for being Ethel Barrymore, like the actress. And throws a cake, tries to throw a cake at him, but it lands on Lena's face instead, like smack in the middle. So now we come to make him laugh. So we find out it's been three weeks since Don saw Kathy and he's been looking for her like in different clubs and so forth. And as a result of that, Don is feeling kind of sad. So this is a number where Cosmo is trying to cheer Don up by, you know, just reminding him that the show must go on, life is fun. And he's going to do a bunch of funny things in this number, make him laugh. This is Donald o' Connor's big number in the movie. The big number of his career, really. This is what Donald o' Connor is, I would say, best known for. [01:11:00] Speaker B: It's. It's not a bad song to be best known for. [01:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like a tour de force. Like, like it's, it's more, much more than the singing. Of course. It's. His dancing in this. [01:11:10] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:11] Speaker A: Is just incredible. It's a series of. How would you describe it, Kara? [01:11:15] Speaker B: Like, I don't know. Yeah, it's just a series. It's very slapsticky. But also, I mean just the dancing is really amazing. Like I always. This was one of my favorite parts when I, when I was younger. I always really loved it and honestly now it makes me think a lot of my, my 7 year old does this all the time when he's trying to cheer up my, my 4 year old. He'll kind of dance around and just like run into things and he just kind of. He's never seen this movie. He's never seen any slapstick stuff. He just does it naturally to try to cheer people up. [01:11:47] Speaker A: Really. That's interesting. [01:11:49] Speaker B: So whenever my son does. Always makes Me think of this scene. [01:11:54] Speaker A: Are you gonna show him the movie sometime and be like, this is you? [01:11:57] Speaker B: I will at some point. Right now, like anything with live action, he kind of loses, like. Loses interest after a little while. [01:12:08] Speaker A: That's too bad. [01:12:09] Speaker B: Oh, well, unless it's the Goonies. He loves the Goonies. [01:12:12] Speaker A: But anyways, I started watching this movie when I was, like, probably three or even younger. So you. Maybe even just that scene. I bet he would like it. If he's doing this already. [01:12:22] Speaker B: I bet he would love this scene, actually. Maybe I should. I should play it for him. [01:12:27] Speaker A: But be careful he doesn't start trying to, like, run up the wall and do a flip. Because, like, that's like, the culmination of the scene. Donald Oconnors, like, literally runs up two different walls and does flips and like, that. It's. It's amazing to me. I mean, it shows his vaudeville background. It shows, like, how he did all these different stunts and Pratt falls and so forth in vaudeville. But, like, still, it seems dangerous. [01:12:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:12:51] Speaker A: Another thing I really found funny in this one when I was a kid is him with the dummy, like, sort of sitting next to the dummy and he's acting like the dummy and him are on a date, which is kind of funny. [01:13:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:02] Speaker A: And then I didn't really understand what all was going on with the W, though. There's definitely sexual suggestiveness to it. [01:13:07] Speaker B: Yeah, there's definitely stuff I didn't. I caught more later. [01:13:11] Speaker A: But, yeah. And let's see, the thing about the song, though, is that's very interesting is this song is, like, pretty much identical to a song. The song Be a Clown, which was written by Cole porter for the 1948 film the Pirate. And that film also starred Gene Kelly. In that movie, he was opposite Judy Garland. And Gene Kelly apparently told Arthur Freed that he wanted a number for Singing in the Rain that was like, Be a Clown. And so producer Freed wrote Make Him Laugh with this instruction and presented it to the directors and the cast and crew. But nobody would tell Freed that. It seemed like it was basically plagiarized. And, like, the first time I saw the pirate, I was like, wait a second. When I heard that. That song. And I was like, that's just like, make him laugh. And, like, come to find out, no, be. Make Him Laugh is just like, Be a clown. And fortunately, Cole Porter never took issue with this uncanny resemblance. But just for my. The audience's benefit, I made a, like, recording of the beginning of one song, then the beginning of the next song. So you can hear it. I almost overlaid them over each other. The rhythms, the, the speeds are slightly different, so it didn't work as a perfect overlay. But even the overlay with the different speeds is still kind of like damning. But here's the recording of just the two songs back to back. [01:14:34] Speaker C: Be a clown, Be a clown all the world loves a clown Act a fool, play the calf and you'll always have the last laugh where the cap and the bells and your with all the great swells. If you become a doctor folks will face you with dread if you become a dentist they'll be glad when you're dead you'll get a bigger hand if you can stand on your head Be a clown, be a clown, be a clown make em laugh, make em laugh don't you know everyone wants to laugh? My dad said be an actor my son but be a comical one they'll be standing in lines for those old honky tonk monkey shines or you could study Shakespeare and be quite elite and you could charm the critics and have nothing to eat Just slip on a banana peel the world at your feet make em laugh, make em laugh make em laugh, make em laugh don't you know everyone wants to laugh. [01:15:45] Speaker A: All right. As clear as clear similarities. You remembered Karen. [01:15:51] Speaker B: Oh, yes. Yeah. I saw the pirate much after I saw this. This movie and I had the. The same thing. I was like, wait a minute. That song sounds exactly like Make Him Laugh. [01:16:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it was like, oh, Arthur Freed. What were you up to there? I don't know. But again, like, sorry, Cole Porter, but like I. This. I think Make Him Laugh is the better song of the two of them as well. So. Yeah, it's. Yeah, but I guess when you have the original material to work with, you can make it a little better. So. [01:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah, you can. You can add on to it a bit. [01:16:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So the, the. The number for Make Them Laugh, the actual dancing and choreography, Donald o' Connor put it together. He worked it out by trying his various vaudeville stunts and having assistants write down things that worked. So he would basically just be performing for them. And when they laughed, when they thought something was funny, they would write it down. And some of the other things we mentioned, the flips and everything. But he was hit by boards at certain times. He did this thing where he was on the ground and he was kind of like running in a circle while lying on his side. I didn't even know how you do some of these things. [01:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I do love that though. Like it's all just Great to watch. [01:17:07] Speaker A: It was incredibly hard to film, though. O' Connor exhausted himself while filming this number, and then he required three days of bed rest afterwards. Then it turned out that the camera's aperture had been set incorrectly and they needed to film the entire thing all over again. So o' Connor came in, reshot it, and then had three more days of bed rest. [01:17:26] Speaker B: Oh, God. [01:17:28] Speaker A: Can you even imagine? You're just like, oh. [01:17:34] Speaker B: I mean, it's funny because actually, some of the stunts he does in this remind me a little bit of Jackie Chan, too. Even though Jackie Chan is, you know, obviously he's not vaudeville in dancing, he's doing martial arts. But he does do that run up the wall flip thing quite a bit. And I feel like I've seen him do the on the ground circle thing too. [01:17:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, perhaps. Yeah. I think I did read somewhere that, like, some people regard Jackie Chan as, like, the heir to Gene Kelly in some ways, too, just for, like, the way his. His martial arts are. So, like, almost dancer, like, in some ways. [01:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I do know that he. And I think it's Shanghai Nights. He does a. An homage to Singing in the Rain. He actually tried to. You can even hear Singing in the Rain a little bit in the background during one of his fight scenes. Any. Oh, wow. And he is fighting with an umbrella at one point, but he definitely does a. A few. A few moves that I've seen in this movie. [01:18:32] Speaker A: So I'll have to check out Shanghai Nights. That's one I haven't seen yet. [01:18:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's okay, but that part's good, man. [01:18:40] Speaker A: I've watched some. I've watched some dubious Jackie Chan movies. I'm prepared, like, so a lot of. [01:18:46] Speaker B: Them are pretty dubious, but they're also fun. I don't think I've ever seen one that wasn't fun. [01:18:50] Speaker A: Exactly. So one last comment about the scene that I found at the 50th anniversary screening of Singing in the Rain. Donald O' Connor said about. Make him laugh, quote, I was building to such a crescendo, I thought I'd actually have to commit suicide. It's like, how do you top the thing that you did? Yeah, yeah. And I agree with you. When I was a kid, this was like. This was probably, bar none, my favorite. When I was a kid, I was just like, let's watch that part again. [01:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:20] Speaker A: All right. So now we come to the film set of the Dueling Cavalier. Don and Lena are shooting their silent film, and Don discovers that Lena had Kathy fired from her job after the cake incident. He's very angry with her. And so they are sniping at each other while filming their silent movie love scene. [01:19:41] Speaker B: I. I like this lot because I know that there's a lot of times when I'm watching silent movies and you try to figure out what they're saying. And sometimes you can see they're actually saying something that you know. I mean, I'm definitely not a lip reader, but you can tell that they're saying something that's related. But I like the idea that they're just fighting with each other during the love scene. [01:20:01] Speaker A: Yeah. That made me think that if you were someone who was like a lip reader, like, you could have had an interesting time going to the movies back then. [01:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:08] Speaker A: Who knows? Who knows? It also shows you something that changed when sound film came in during the silent era. The directors were able to give direction as the scene was progressing. And saying, now you cross to her. You're feeling this. You know, like he could. He. The director could be actively giving direction the whole time. Which is something that went out with sound films and apparently caused trouble for some actors and some directors. [01:20:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's. It really is a completely different art, making sound films versus making silent films. [01:20:41] Speaker A: And the filming of this movie is stopped, though, suddenly, when R.F. simpson comes in, the head of the studio, and announces that they're switching to sound films due to the success of the Jazz Singer. And Cosmo thinks he's out of a job, but he's now the head of the music department. [01:20:57] Speaker B: Which is pretty lucky for Cosmo because a lot of the music people were out of a job then. [01:21:01] Speaker A: True, true. Then they talk about how now the Dueling Cavalier talks. And then Lena says, well, of course we talk. Don't everybody? That's not a very good Lina Lamott impersonation. But it is illustrative enough of how much trouble they're going to be in with Lena talking. Before we get to seeing what the Dueling Cavalier is going to look like as a sound picture. We get a little montage that is marking the transition from silent to sound films. And it's a montage of different, like, kind of music numbers. And all culminating in a song, Beautiful Girl. And the songs in the montage are all the Freed Brown songs. I've Got a Feeling you're Fooling, Should I? And the Wedding of the Painted Doll. And they're all kind of mixed together. It was kind of a nightmare when I got these stuck in my head recently because they're all these Little snippets. And I think the songs themselves are somewhat annoying, to be honest. I mean, what do you think of the songs themselves? Not the scene, but the songs. [01:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean the songs are a little bit annoying. [01:22:04] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like I've got a feeling you're fooling and like it's a holiday. Today's the wedding of the painted doll. It's just like, oh my God. Okay. But the way it looks, the montage looks fabulous. I love the like the vibrant colors and like the mix of like kind of 1920s, like cliche dance lines and so forth. [01:22:26] Speaker B: I always love a good montage too. And I know that, yeah, I know that this part that they were really trying to pay homage to Busby Berkeley. They're doing kind of a parody slash. But I mean they really liked Busby Berkeley. So this was a parody in a good way because they really liked it. [01:22:44] Speaker A: I hadn't really even seen any Buzz Berkeley until a year or so or a couple years ago when we started doing a musical series for this podcast. And like I like he was so influential. Like his early style, like you'll see it in a lot of places. Like the way that he. He film dance using actors bodies as more like set pieces, almost like part of a mise en scene rather than the Kelly's dance style which is showing the whole dancer and as an individual. So yeah, this, this is a really, this is really kind of a fun montage and like you say, it's paying homage to the. The time that they're talking about there. And Beautiful Girl, that ending song was created for the movie as an opportunity to make fun of the fashions of the 1920s. And the song in the movie is sung by Jimmy Thompson. It's kind of random. Like you've had Gene Kelly and Donald o' Connor and then here's this random guy who comes in, but I mean he does a good job singing the song. And also this number though, besides having the fashion show is brought in as an opportunity to reintroduce Kathy into the story because Kathy is in the chorus in the Beautiful Girl montage and Cosmo spots her and brings Don to see her again. But I, I never really liked the song Beautiful Girl very much, but when I was a kid I loved watching the scene because they're the fashion. The outfits are so wild and like I've always like, even though I don't dress like very fashionably myself, I always liked playing with my Barbie dolls and I like the, I like looking at fashion design. You Know. [01:24:14] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I have the same. I don't really. Fashion is definitely not what I. What I actually do with myself, but I know, like, when I was a kid, I used to love, like, making up dresses and drawing them and. Yeah. And I. I liked this part. [01:24:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm trying to think, like, if there were any outfits. And from that section in particular that I liked, I can't remember them individually much right now. But, like, it's just kind of ridiculous stuff, though. Like, somebody has, like, I think, a monkey fur or something. There's, like, some kind of elaborate tennis outfit, I think, and, like, a giant string of pearls that you would see, like, in a flapper movie or something. [01:24:49] Speaker B: So, yeah, I was gonna say the giant pearls are what really stick with me. [01:24:53] Speaker A: So now that Cosmo spotted Kathy and brought Don back, Cosmo says to Kathy, we've been looking inside every cake in town. And Kathy understands now that dawn is into her and in a serious way. And she sort of reconciled to Don. Like, imagine she's actually very quickly reconciled to Don. She was pissed at him before, but now she's, like, okay with him because he makes sure that she can keep her job at the studio despite any possible objections from Lena. So, like, they go from being kind of, like her throwing. Trying to throw cakes at him to them having a love scene just like that. [01:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah, it is pretty quick. But you also. I mean, you kind of get the. Like, you do with a lot of the. I don't know, like, meet cutes, hate each other at first. Like, they don't really hate each other, you know? [01:25:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, it is. It's funny that I never noticed it, though. Like, I just accepted it. I'm like, oh, yes, of course, now they are in love. [01:25:49] Speaker B: Why wouldn't they be? [01:25:51] Speaker A: I mean, he is Gene Kelly in the early 1950s. So, yeah. Yeah, I did fall in love. Pretty hard to resist. Yeah. So now we come to you Were Meant For Me, which is the. The kind of. The big love song between Don and Kathy. It's their first official love song. This is one of the songs that originally appeared in MGM's first musical, The Broadway Melody, in 1929, and it also appeared in many other films before showing up and Singing in the Rain. And again, the song is much, much better in Singing in the Rain. In fact, I'm pretty sure in the Broadway Melody, a guy is singing it to, like, his fiance's sister who he's fallen in love with or something. And I'm like, awkward. [01:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:42] Speaker A: Or his fiance's best friend. I can't. But I think they're actually sisters. I can't remember exactly. Either way, it's like, it's not this like rousing romantic moment that you can feel just unambiguously happy for, you know? [01:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, honestly, I never liked the scene very much. [01:27:00] Speaker A: Oh, really? Okay. [01:27:02] Speaker B: I just always find it a little bit boring compared to the rest of the film. [01:27:06] Speaker A: But I mean, it is very simple in terms of its staging. So like you have this. The gimmick for this scene is essentially it takes place on a sound stage where Gene Kelly, where Dawn takes Kathy and sort of sets the stage for his love declaration by putting different lights up and mist. And he puts her on a ladder that's sort of meant as a stand in for a balcony. Starts with him just singing to her. And then they do a very light dance, which I'm sure, I'm sure that Debbie Reynolds was happy to have a very easy dance to do after some of the other numbers in the movie. Is it that the setting is so simple or is it that the dancing is so simple? Do you think that. [01:27:46] Speaker B: I don't know. Maybe it's because the dancing is simple and the song is slower and it just, it's just not as engaging, I guess, as the rest of the film. [01:27:56] Speaker A: Now for me, I'm. I'm different because like I. Even when I was a kid, I really liked this one. I feel. Because I feel like the romance is so well portrayed in this. And one of the things about Gene Kelly is he is really good at looking like he's in love with someone on screen. Like there's something about his face and his eye contact. Like he can just make you believe. Oh, you're. He's totally in love with this person rather than this is a person he was like yelling at to like smile more when she danced like five minutes ago. I, I mean, I, I don't know. This is. I think so it really works for me because it gives Gene Kelly a chance to just slow down and emote. And I also like the way it's staged. I think I. Once in a while I like something that's kind of airy and, and more, more of an empty stage, but I guess different strokes in that case. [01:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I'm also. I don't know, I never am pulled as into the. To the romance as I am into just the dancing and the fun. [01:28:58] Speaker A: So, I mean, obviously I'm pulled into the romance because I have a whole podcast. [01:29:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I Think I'm more pulled into the comedy than the romance, but that's just me, so. [01:29:10] Speaker A: An interesting thing that I hadn't really thought of before about the scene, though, is a lot of critics have sort of commented on how this scene draws attention to the illusion of film musicals, even as we're enjoying the illusion of a film musical. Like, he's literally, like, setting a stage for a musical number within a movie that is, you know, set the stage for a musical number. It's. It's interesting. [01:29:33] Speaker B: I kind of like that. I kind of like the, the meta aspect of it. [01:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I, I. It hadn't occurred to me, but yes, absolutely, it does that. And, and I, I like that it doesn't even matter. It's like he's asking you to be pulled into a dream when he's already revealed the. The secrets behind the dream. [01:29:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:55] Speaker A: And another note that I have about this scene is if you're a Xanadu fan, or even if you're not a Xanadu fan, someday watch Xanadu, everybody. I'm pretty sure the Suddenly number in Xanadu, which is also the kind of first love scene in that movie, is taking inspiration from this number because the main character in that movie takes Kira, who's Olivia Newton John's character, to a recording studio with different backdrops, and then they skate around those backdrops while they're declaring their love to each other. There's even a part of that scene where they hold black umbrellas in a fake rainstorm. And of course, Gene Kelly is in Xanadu. So I would not be surprised if it's a pretty direct homage. Direct inspiration from Scene in the Rain. And we did cover Xanadu on every rom com. I'm forgetting which episode off the top of my head, but it was in our musical series, so, yes, audience, you can also check that out. I want to talk a little bit now then, about the transition from silent to sound film. And, Karen, I know you did a lot of research. I did a little bit of complimentary research myself, but I'm going to let you, if you're okay with that, kind of take the. Start the discussion. Would you be okay with that? [01:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fine. There's two really good books on this topic. The first one is the Parade Gone by by Kevin Brownlow, which is also just on silent films in general, but at the end, he has a really good chapter on the transition from. From Sound to Film. And the other one is the talkies. But most of what I'm Going to talk about now is pretty much from Kevin Brownlow. So I think that the first thing to realize with silent films is that they were never. They were never really silent. Because from the big movie palaces with full orchestras to just small town theaters with just a single person and with a piano, like, they were always accompanied by music. And I've seen actually quite a few silent films even now, whether it's played with a big orchestra and sometimes it is just a person with a piano and they'll have multiple instruments. So when they start playing fiddles on the screen, they pull out a fiddle, they have their piano. Obviously, like, there was a lot of sound going on during silent films. And also sound on film didn't start with the Jazz Singer. I mean, as early as 1901, scientists were recording sound waves on film. And in France, 1907, Pathet had a sound division that was making shorts mainly that played at fairgrounds theaters. Would play the sound on a gramophone and then they would sync it up with the projector. But this was just a novelty. It's kind of like we talked a little bit earlier when they showed the little talking piece at the party. It wasn't considered something you would use for a full film. It was just a little novelty piece. But sound pictures really began in 1925 when Warner Brothers started their Vitaphone division. You also had Fox doing their Movietone division, but Vitaphone kind of got it together a little bit quicker. They instantly discovered that their studios were not soundproof. And they picked up a lot of street noise. And so they ended up having to, like remake their entire studios and make soundproof, soundproof stages. And they even had one of their biggest problems was pigeons. [01:33:12] Speaker A: Oh, really? [01:33:13] Speaker B: Yeah, there were a lot of, you know, pigeons that would be roosting up in the studios and stuff. And they didn't really even realize they were there until all of a sudden they're hearing cooing on the recordings. But these early ones that they were doing, they weren't really talking pictures. They had sync sound effects and music. And they were mostly for shorts and newsreels. The first feature that had sync sound, which was orchestral music and sound effects, was Don Juan with John Barrymore, which screened in August 1926. Have you ever seen Don Juan? [01:33:47] Speaker A: I haven't. Like, I did read about it a little bit preparing this, and I just haven't gotten around to it yet. [01:33:52] Speaker B: I mean, I like John Barrymore. It's okay. A lot of the early sync sound stuff is a lot better than the early, just talky Stuff. But so the audiences, they were kind of lukewarm to these early sound recordings. The reception to sound newsreels was really positive. But for other film audiences, you know, they were used to a live orchestra playing along. So just like some tinny sound coming from bad speakers was just. It was a downgrade in the experience. And theaters were a little iffy on it because they had to upgrade all of their equipment just to be able to do this. [01:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah, like I read, actually a lot of smaller theaters went out of business when sound films really came in, like. And they just weren't able to compete to get the upgrades like the bigger chains were. [01:34:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, obviously something a little bit more recent. There were a lot of smaller cinemas that went out of business when they had to switch from regular film production to digital projection about 10 years ago. It was kind of a similar. It was a lot of money to do that. But the Jazz Singer debuted in New York City in August 6, 1927. And it was supposed to just be Al Jolson singing with some sound effects and music, but he did ablid just a few lines. The film still has title cards, so it's kind of like a mixture between a silent film and a sound film. But it was a huge success and it really. It pulled theaters out of a slump that they had been in and really signified the beginning of the transition to sound. So at this point, Jazz Singer was such a big success that the industry really scrambled to start producing sound pictures, which you can kind of see in Singing in the Rain, you know, where they have to, like, stop and suddenly switch what they're doing with the Dueling Cavalier. Most of the early films were. They were just silent films. And then they would tack a romantic scene at the end with some dialogue. And these talking pictures were a completely different art form from the silent films. And these early talkies, they're really not very good. I don't know. Have you seen any of these? [01:36:06] Speaker A: I'm not sure, to be honest. Not any of the ones I saw mentioned in my book. So, like, I'll cut in really quickly. The. The Speed of Sound, which I read by Scott Iman, said that the transition of sound was a little bit more slowly than it appears in Singing in the Rain, though, because even after the Jazz Singer, there were studios that were holdouts. And he puts the 1928 film, the Lights of New York, New York, which was a dramatic all talking film that grossed 1.2 million, as kind of the. The kind of nail in the coffin, I guess, of silent films. Like, he quotes Daryl Zanuck in the book, who says, the Jazz Singer turned them to sound, the lights of New York to talk. It turned the whole goddamn tide. So, like, I found that interesting, too. I haven't seen. Have you seen a bunch of these transitional films? [01:36:52] Speaker B: Not a. But I've seen some. I did a project when I was at the George Eastman Museum, where I was watching. I was going through all the Fox holdings that they had to determine what needed to have a higher preservation priority, which is just what did they have at the Eastman Museum that other places didn't have? And it was the only copy, or that they had the best copy so that we could determine if we needed to preserve it. And so I watched quite a bit. Bit of some Fox stuff from around this era, because for some reason, we hadn't preserved them. And then I kind of realized why there was some of them. I remember there was. There was a Western that George Eastman Museum had the only copy of. It was a sound film. But you could tell when you started watching it that it had actually been being played as a silent film in theaters, and they had made so many cuts to it that you. You couldn't really use the soundtrack anymore. Oh, I was like, this is why we haven't done it. And I noticed with some of those early talkies, it's funny, because as much as they were trying to be quiet when they were making them, you can still hear some stage noise in the background, just because our speakers that we have now are better. So even when you're listening to a original re. You know, original print from back then, just our equipment now can pick up stuff that they weren't hearing. So there's always this kind of like, weird little murmur in the. In the background. [01:38:25] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah. No, I mean, I feel like it's natural that it was awkward. Like, I mean, you put in here. And I read about, too, how all aspects of film production basically had to change. Like, the way people directed had to change, and the way things were lit had to change. And the way you even used a camera had to change because the camera made too much noise. Initially, they hadn't figured out how to squash the camera noise yet. So they had to put the camera inside a box with the cameraman, which. [01:38:54] Speaker B: That is. I. I love the scene in Babylon where they're showing that if anyone has seen Babylon, where they show the transition and they have the. The cameraman in the box. And they also had to. Since you were recording the sound at the same time, they needed to be able to switch between cameras. So this is when they kind of stopped using just one camera. They would have three cameras going on at the same time so that you were catching the entire scene. And that required more lighting. So just the lights were a lot stronger. And then you have three cameras. And that's actually the new position of director of photography was created at this time so that they could supervise all the camera operators. [01:39:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And also for a while, I guess they were bringing in extra directors sometimes from theater to be, like, a dialogue director. And the other director was, like, the camera director. And he was still in charge. But now there'd be, like, a dialogue director hanging around too. Apparently, that's how George Cukor came to Hollywood as, like. He was, like a stage person they brought in. I found that out from the Speed of Sound book. [01:39:58] Speaker B: Oh, nice. Yeah. I mean, it was really weird for them then because, you know, they kind of. They looked at theater as, like, okay, well, here's theater where, you know, people are talking. But theater is also a different medium than film. So it just. It took a while for them to kind of figure out what they were doing, you know. Now that there was. Now that there was talking. [01:40:20] Speaker A: Let's also talk about then. We can also talk then about how actors had a difficult time. And as we mentioned, John Gilbert was one of the inspirations for Singing in the Rain. The career of John Gilbert. And we have slightly different. It's interesting, our research yielded slightly different results about him. But, like, what you tell yours, what you read first and then I'll tell what I read in my book then. [01:40:43] Speaker B: I know that, like. Well, his normal talking voice, it was a tenor, which is fine. But some of the early recording technology tended to raise voices a few octaves so he sounded a bit like Mickey Mouse. And his voice was not really recorded properly until Queen Christina. And by then his career was over. I had read. I do know that there was more going on there because there were some problems between John Gilbert and the studios. [01:41:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So what I read in the Speed of Sound said that Gilbert's downfall was kind of multifactorial. Like, a lot of different factors were going on. To talk about how big a star he was, though he was making $250,000amovie in 1929 which is astronomical for that time. And that book said that his voice didn't come out that poorly. But the problem was that it was a mismatch from what audiences kind of expected he would sound like. And plus, his usual acting style wasn't one that transferred easily to Sound film films also, just like the dialogue from like the silent era didn't transfer, translate very naturally to sound. And then also it says that MGM stopped giving him good parts. Louis B. Mayer and him might have had some beef. That wasn't ex. That's not actually 100% sure, but it. But there is a quote from Howard Hawks where Howard Hawks talk is about how Louis B. Mayer wouldn't release him to do a Howard Hawks movie. That he was. That he was trying to cast him in the Dawn Patrol. And that might have helped his career. But like, they weren't giving Gilbert the good parts at MGM and they. They weren't releasing him to do good parts at other studios either. So it was kind. Also, he was apparently an alcoholic. Like even possibly before these problems started. [01:42:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think that makes. Because I did know that, yeah, he was having problems with the studio. So. [01:42:36] Speaker A: But anyway, yeah, different stars had different levels of success once sound came in. Some of them, their acting styles were not quite working. Some of them, their voices or their accents didn't quite work. [01:42:47] Speaker B: I know, I liked Greta Garbo. I know that MGM was really terrified that audiences weren't going to like her voice. So they delayed her talking debut until February 1930 in Anna Christie. She ended up. She was nominated for an Oscar in that role and her career continued on. [01:43:06] Speaker A: I found this period, like the little bit of research I did, very interesting. I definitely want to learn more about it in the future. [01:43:13] Speaker B: So I do think it is a really fun period to read about and to see just how much everything changed from early Hollywood. You know, once it gets into sound and the people who were losing their careers. I do think that there was also a lot of like early silent films started out with a lot of women directors. And you kind of. You were already losing that before the switch to sound. But after the switch to sound, I mean, they're just. You don't really see any women directors for a while, at least not in the big studio system. [01:43:49] Speaker A: Dorothy Arzner, I think is really one of the only examples I've read about that's interesting though. Like, I guess, like when there's a transition, it can knock a lot of people out. [01:44:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And like I said, it was already on its way because the studio system was, you know, was a movie making machine by the late 20s. But it did give them an excuse, I think, when they shifted everything up to get rid of people they didn't like. [01:44:18] Speaker A: We also, though, brought a lot of people. People in, though, with sound. So some of the People that were brought in, we see in Singing in the Rain were diction coaches. Yes. And we, we get a great scene where we see Lena with her diction coach. She's saying round tones and she has Lena do some of her dialogue and she says, and I can't stand him. And the diction coach goes, and I can't stand him. She's like, and I can't stand him. And then she says, says can't. And she goes, can. So amazing. I love that scene. [01:44:56] Speaker B: I do too. [01:44:57] Speaker A: Jean Hagan, like, I did not appreciate her enough when I was a kid. I was just like, oh, Lena's so annoying. But like Jean Hagen had a really, a beautiful voice in real life and it just, it's hard to like, for somebody, like to portray someone so annoying with this consistently grading voice, like for this whole movie and this great comic time too. [01:45:17] Speaker B: I know. [01:45:19] Speaker A: So we also see Don with his diction coach now in a number. And Cosmo comes in and imitates the diction coach's mannerisms, his humorous mannerisms behind his back, which leads into the song Moses supposes. And Comden and Green, the authors of the movie, said that this song was inspired by a producer on the Broadway version of on the Town who gave the actors tongue twister. So this is one of the original songs composed for the movies by Condon and Green. And this, this number, this dance number, I did not realize this, but apparently this dance number, the tap dance that Donald o' Connor and Gene Kelly subsequently do, is regarded by many people, including co director Stanley Donen, as one of the most impressive tap dance numbers ever filmed. And when I really did look at it, I mean, it looks like they make it look so light and easy and fun, but it really is a fairly complex, like two person synchronized tap dance number. What do you think? [01:46:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. I had read that too. And yeah. I don't think I'd realized it before, but I guess that that's one of the great things when you're a really good dancer is you make it look so easy. Yeah. That you can't tell how impressive it is. Although I did always love this song too. I love Moses supposes. [01:46:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's fun to sing like it's based on a tongue twister. So I guess it would be. [01:46:38] Speaker B: It's catchy. And then. Yeah. And the tap dancing really is amazing. [01:46:42] Speaker A: Like this. This was also another highlight when I was a kid. And also it's fun because they're kind of like playing with this, the very serious diction coach and, like, dancing around him and so forth. And the whole thing kind of culminates them, too, when they, like, put a bunch of props onto their Dixon coats. [01:46:59] Speaker B: Yeah, he's, you know, the diction coach is very. He just kind of lets it happen. I don't know. [01:47:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:47:08] Speaker B: I'm surprised he's not resisting a little bit more. [01:47:11] Speaker A: This is my life now. Yeah. No, it's great. I think. I wish o' Connor and Kelly had been able to do more movies together. I think they made a really good team. [01:47:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:23] Speaker A: All right, so now we come to a. I'm going to play a little clip of what happens when they try to record their first sound version of the Dueling Cavalier. And it doesn't go too well. So you're going to hear some sound going in and out. That is not your speaker. That is not our podcast. That is the clip from the movie. So we'll check it out. [01:47:46] Speaker C: All right, here we go. Quiet. Quiet. Work problem. She's got to talk into the mic. I can't pick it up. Cut. What's the matter, Dexter? It's Lena. Look, Lena, don't you remember? I told you there's a microphone right there in the bush. Yeah. You have to talk into. [01:48:19] Speaker A: I was talking, wasn't I, Ms. Dinsmore? [01:48:21] Speaker C: Yes, my dear, but please remember, round tones. Pierre, you shouldn't have come. [01:48:29] Speaker A: Pierre, you shouldn't have come. [01:48:31] Speaker C: Yes, yes, my dear. [01:48:32] Speaker B: That's much better. [01:48:32] Speaker C: Now, hold it a second. Now, Lena, look, here's the mic right here in the bush. Here. Now, you talk towards it. The sound goes through the cable to the box. A man records it on a big record in wax. But you have to talk into the mic first. In the bush. I'll try it again. [01:48:57] Speaker A: Jesus is dumb. [01:48:59] Speaker C: She'll get it, Dexter. Look, Glena, don't worry. We're all a little nervous the first day. Everything's gonna be okay. Oh, by the way, Roscoe, you know the scene coming up where I say, imperious princess of the night. Night. I don't like those lines there. Is it all right if I just say what I always do? I love you. I love you. I love you. Sure. Anyway, it's comfortable, but into the bush. Okay. Again, quiet. Golem. [01:49:34] Speaker A: Surely find you out. [01:49:38] Speaker C: What? Lena, we're missing every other word. You've got to talk into the mic. [01:49:44] Speaker D: Well, I can't make love to a bush. [01:49:47] Speaker C: All right, all right. [01:49:51] Speaker A: Well, I can't make love to a bush. [01:49:53] Speaker B: That's one of my favorite lines. [01:49:57] Speaker A: It's pretty amazing. Oh my God. Yeah, so, yeah, this is, this is real too. Like there were a lot of texts left on this, on the mgm, you know, crews who remembered this transition too. And apparently they gave a lot of stories of how difficult it was to Gene Kelly and Stanley Donen and that they incorporated into the movie. They would hide microphones all over the place. Apparently the book the Speed of Sound also said that there were sometimes actors who were given non speaking roles just so they could harbor a microphone on their body that the other actors could talk to. [01:50:34] Speaker B: I've heard of that before. And it's definitely, I mean, if you watch early talkies there, there are times that you, you can hear this. I mean, this is exaggerated, but you can definitely hear when people are walking away from the mic or suddenly like they've turned their head and you can't hear them as well. [01:50:52] Speaker A: There's a second attempt now after this failed Bush experiment where they sew a microphone into Lena's costume. This was something that was apparently also done. The costume designer for Singing in the Rain, Walter Plunkett, had worked during these early days and he remembered avoiding fabrics like taffeta because they made too much noise. And also sewing mics into tight fitting costumes at times. And like this ends up though with like the one for me, one of the funniest moments in the whole film. Lena's wired up with this mic in her bodice and then RF Simpson comes onto the soundstage and like finds a, like a wire line around on the ground and says, what's this doing here? This is dangerous. And he yanks it and he yanks Lena over and she falls down. I don't know. I don't usually go for slapstick and pratfalls, but that particular one really works for me. [01:51:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I love this. This whole scene is just, it's just great. [01:51:46] Speaker A: Okay, so after this disastrous recording experience, it's a wonder to me that anybody would have thought that this film premiere was going to go well. You do see in this scene, Don looks very nervous and so does Roscoe the director, but Lena's just sitting there smiling. She's like, this is gonna be great. [01:52:07] Speaker B: Well, Lita is a little clueless. [01:52:10] Speaker A: And you see like we had the first film premiere of their the Royal Rascal and everyone in the audience loves it. Very successful. It's a high point of their career. Now we come to this scene and the audience is almost immediately starting to laugh. First we have Lena's voice on display. I am the noblest lady of the court and I can't stand him. Like she's just saying things that just sound terrible in her, like, romantic looking Marie Antoinette, like, type outfit. Then we have things like that are causing too much noise that they shouldn't. Like she's playing with her beaded necklace. It's making a huge noise. She hits Don with a fan and somebody in the audience says, what did you hit him with, Lena? Blackjack. And just everything's causing too much noise. It seems like, you know, out of proportion. And then there's Don, too. Don is also a problem because he has an overly theatrical acting style. [01:53:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I know that. I had read that the, the part where they're laughing at his dialogue, the I love you, I love you, I love you. It was based on the audience response to John Gilbert saying these exact same lines in his glorious night in 1929. And it's. I mean, and you can see it because, you know, in early silent films, like the romantic things, like, they just had short little quips that said things like, I love you, I love you, I love you on the, on the title cards. And I mean, that's fine if you're just reading it, but when you're hearing people say it, it's just so cheesy. [01:53:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. There's a. Definitely a difference. Yeah. And I think when you're. When you're watching a silent film, you could fill in other things with your imagination. Source of. Yeah, Even if it was just to fill in a tone, you know, like of a voice or something, that would make it sound better and then hear it. And also like the, the stilted movements play very differently with sound film too, because sound film makes it approach more like you're watching something real. When you have this overly theatrical acting style, it. There's a jarring sensation of this is not real. This is not how real people walk. They don't like. They don't like, walk up to you all dramatically and then stop with their arms outstretched, for example. [01:54:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And definitely, you know, silent films, you know, people, they really had to show their feelings a lot of the times. And some of that is. Is really fantastic when you. I mean, the amount that people are able to tell a story without any sort of dialogue. I mean, they do have dialogue. You have little bits of dialogue, but that you can see how people feel. Like there's so much to it. But it's a completely. It's a completely different art form and it's just really cheesy when people do it with sound. [01:54:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So the whole audience is laughing at this point. And they're not like laughing with them, they're laughing at them. And finally, the piece de resistance of this whole dreadful premiere. The sound goes out of synchronization with the film, which leads to the moment where this villain is with Lena and she's supposed to be saying, no, no, no, and he's supposed to say, yes, yes, yes. But it gets reversed. So the villain's saying, no, no, no, and Lina saying, yes, yes, yes. And this is like. This is like the big moment. And the thing is, I read. So the Speed of Sound book included this, like, two page spread where it showed the direction that were sent to projectionists about how to sync the sound discs with the sound movies. Right. And it was it. The detail, the level of, like, stuff that you had to pay attention to to sync everything up. [01:55:50] Speaker B: Right. [01:55:50] Speaker A: Was just intense. Like, I don't know how anybody was expected to do this because you had to get the. There were. These films were on several different reels. Right. I guess the jazz singers, apparently was on 15 different reels and 15 different discs. Discs, okay. And they all had to be carefully matched and coordinated. And then you had to make sure you were changing needles often enough. If a record skipped, you had to, like, get it to line back up. Like, there was also the sound, the. The sound on the film technology, which is what we eventually came to use. But like some version of that. But like the sound on disc sounded like a nightmare. [01:56:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you can imagine how hard it would be just to sync stuff up. And I don't know if anyone has ever done projection. Yeah, I mean, it was just. It was a nightmare. I do know that that had slightly better sound quality, at least at first, than the. Than the sound on film, which is why it kind of started that way. But you can see why they switched really, really quick to not having to sync it up. [01:56:55] Speaker A: So after this sad film premiere, Cosmo and Kathy join Don at his house to commiserate over the experience. Don calls himself a museum piece and Cosmo jokes that they can always go back to vaudeville and does a little dance reminding him of. Reminding us of the little montage at the beginning where it shows Cosmo and Don's, you know, coming up in vaudeville. And then Kathy gets the idea that we'll make this dueling cavalier into a musical which leads into the song Good Morning. So this is a little clip of the song Good Morning where Kathy, Don and Cosmo all dance together. [01:57:33] Speaker C: It's 1:30 already. It's morning. [01:57:35] Speaker A: Yes. [01:57:36] Speaker D: And what a lovely morning. [01:57:39] Speaker C: Good Morning, good morning We've talked the whole night through Good morning, good morning to you Good morning, good morning it's great to stay up late Good morning. [01:57:55] Speaker D: Good morning to you. [01:57:59] Speaker C: When the band began to play the stars were shining bright now the milkman's on his way it's too late to say good night so good morning, good morning Sunbeams, whistles flapping Good morning, good morning to you. [01:58:15] Speaker D: And you and and you and you Good morning, good morning We've gabed the whole night through Good morning, good morning. [01:58:24] Speaker C: To you Nothing could be grander than. [01:58:25] Speaker A: To be in Louisiana in the morning. [01:58:27] Speaker D: In the morning it's great to stay up late Good morning, good morning Might. [01:58:33] Speaker A: Be just a zippy if we was in Mississippi when we left the movie. [01:58:37] Speaker D: Show the future wasn't bright but came dawn we sure Good morning rainbow shining. [01:58:49] Speaker C: Good morning, good morning Bonjour, monsieur. [01:58:53] Speaker D: Buenas dias. Bonjour. [01:59:04] Speaker A: All right, I'll cut it off there. I love this song, though. This is actually probably my favorite song in the movie. I know other people feel differently. I posted that it was stuck in my head on Facebook and somebody said this song was his personal nightmare. Where do you come down on it? [01:59:17] Speaker B: I like this song. I used to. It was on. I had a mix of morning songs when my first kid was really little, and this was the first one, so. [01:59:31] Speaker A: Very good. Yeah. I'm glad we agree because, like, I. I love this song and I love. This is where you really get a display of Debbie Reynolds's voice because we're going to come to find out that she does not sing all the songs in the movies that she appears to be singing, but she is most definitely singing this song, and it really shows her strengths as a musical actress. This was also, though, an incredibly difficult dance for her to perform. She said it was the hardest scene for her to film and she had to take a day of bed rest after filming. When you look at some of the stuff they do, like their. In synchron, they're synchronizing, dancing up a set of steps and down a set of steps. For one thing, there's a part where they have to, like, kind of jump onto a back of a couch and turn it over or something like that. It's like there's some intense stuff they do here. [02:00:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I do love the. The. The Gene Kelly post dubbed her tap sounds just a. Yeah. [02:00:27] Speaker A: I don't know if movie audiences generally know that, like, you're not hearing people's taps as they appear in a film. Generally, you're Hearing later, you're the people will perform their taps in sync with the dancing in the movie. Like, all the big actors did this. Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly. I didn't really realize that myself until I did research. [02:00:47] Speaker B: It makes sense because. I don't know, I guess just with. You have to be able to catch. I mean, those sounds are so loud. I can see that they would film them separately. [02:01:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyway, I think I love the number. Like, they do a lot of different things in it. This. The set they use for this music for this dance number is very large, so they can appear to be going into, like, different rooms. And they play with a number of different props as well. And also you get to see the three of them performing together, which I think is another strength of the number. Yeah. Like, you see them in twos and singles and other points in the movie, but this is the only one. Well, not the only one, because at the beginning of the movie, they're also playing Singing in the Rain together. But. Yeah. So then they come to the end of this, like, very cheerful number where they're all excited about making a musical, and they realize that they still have a problem because Lena can't sing. I think, like, Cosmo says something like, she can't sing, she can't dance, she can't act. Triple threat or something like that. [02:01:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I love. I love that line, too. I laugh every time I hear it. [02:01:54] Speaker A: Then Kathy talks about the. Her favorite part of Lena's dialogue was when she appeared to be saying, no, no, no. And that's when Cosmo gets the idea that they'll just have Kathy dub Lena's singing and dub Lena's lines. So then we come to, like, something that's going to cause just a little bit more drama at the end of the picture as well. This issue of Kathy dubbing for Lena and what that's going to do potentially to Kathy's career for good or ill. All right, so everybody has said good morning, and now Don drives Kathy home and it is raining. And Kathy says something to Don about, like, take care of. I think she says, like, take care of your throat or something. You're a big movie star now or something. Or singing star now. Something like that. [02:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:02:45] Speaker A: She tells him to take care of himself because he's a big singing star now, and he's. And he's, like, looking at the rain and saying, from where I stand, the sun is shining all over the place. It's like. It's such a smooth Gene Kelly line. [02:02:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. I love this whole scene. Yeah. I mean, who doesn't, though? [02:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, this Singing in the Rain musical number. I think even if people haven't seen classic film, I'm kind of shocked if they haven't, like, if they're not familiar with this song, this number. I'm sure there are people who exist out there, but, like, it's, like, it's very. It's one of the most famous scenes in American film history, I would say. [02:03:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And it's been parodied and redone over and over and over again, so. [02:03:32] Speaker A: So Don says a smooth little line to Kathy. She goes in her house. Then he starts strolling down the street with his umbrella going. And then breaks out into the song, Singing in the Rain. And I love the way the number begins very casually. Like, first with a walk and then with, like, very light dance steps. Like, nothing too fancy. And then when he starts really getting into the number, he jumps up on the lamp post and. Yeah. Are there any aspects of the dance that particularly appeal to you? It goes on for a little while, of course. [02:04:07] Speaker B: I don't know. I mean, it's always nice to see dancing, you know, in water. I mean, it's like a. I don't know. It's a prop. That's not a prop. I don't know. I guess it's a set prop. I'm not sure what the. [02:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's definitely something that's being used to accentuate the dance for me, I think. I love the end of the number where he jumps in the puddle like a child. Like, I think that's probably one of my favorite parts. [02:04:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I do love that part. I don't know. I think it's also just one of those, like. It seems like such a simple dance. I mean, some of the other ones, I think, seem. I think that this one was probably immensely hard, but, like, it looks simpler than some of the other numbers in the movie. [02:04:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I think maybe the actual choreography probably isn't quite as intricate. But then the aspect of performing that choreography in the water and hitting the right marks and they had to, like, custom make different puddles. It's not like he could just spontaneously decide where he's going to do this stuff. He had to hit specific marks with the water. And he's wet the whole time, too. I mean, just being wet would not be pleasant. [02:05:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think. Yeah, there's just something great, like, a real childlike aspect to the dance. Yeah, he's, like, jumping in puddles and he's kind of everyone else in, in the scene. Like, he'll try to kind of pretend that he's normal, but then he's jumping around and dancing again. I don't know. Like, it's just. It's a really great scene. [02:05:35] Speaker A: And then speaking of the difficult aspect of it. So there's this legend which you've probably heard this too, Karen. This legend of him having had a 103 degree fever during the shooting of the scene. And from what I've read, like I read a couple different sources on this, this may or may not be strictly accurate that it was 103. Like, that may have been a slight exaggeration. The. The book the Making of the Singing in the Rain, the Making of An American Masterpiece says that they can pretty much confirm that he was definitely ill with the flu and a sinus infection as they prepared the scene and he was still at least recovering and feverish during filming. But the book sort of like has its doubts about the 103 figure. I don't know. Do you. Do you have any opinion on this matter? [02:06:22] Speaker B: No, I think it's just one of those kind of, I guess, fun little stories to think it's this iconic thing and then, you know, he was really sick when he was doing it, but he just. He looks really happy. Yeah, I don't know. [02:06:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. I think some of these legends do tend to get exaggerated though. And anytime you read one of those like articles online, that's like 10 great facts. You didn't know about them this movie, you always have to approach them with a little bit of a grain of salt because sometimes the sources are not always the best, you know. Same thing with IMDb trivia. I found that a lot of those can be disproven if you go and look farther. [02:06:59] Speaker B: So, yeah, I know that I had looked at a few different. Just articles from different journals and I found, you know, like one talking about how they'd mixed milk in with the rain so you could see it. And then I found another one disproving that saying, yeah, it's been said forever that they mixed milk, but no, they didn't. And that, you know, there was like three or four different scholarly articles all saying the exact opposite of each other. [02:07:28] Speaker A: I mean, that's true. Like even the scholars can sometimes like have disputes as to what is true and false too. So I am inclined to like think that the 103 might be a sort of after the fact exaggeration though. So. But. But definitely that he had a fever and that he was still recovering seems very clear. And still he manages to make this one of the most joyful looking scenes in American cinema. Like there's multiple shots of him just like his head kind of turned up toward the sky, smiling like. [02:07:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just, it's so iconic. Like, I mean. Yeah, I mean, I guess in all of. Of film this is, this has to be one of the top 10 most iconic. [02:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I would even almost say top five. Really? [02:08:14] Speaker B: Yeah, top five. [02:08:15] Speaker A: And in music, in terms of musicals, you could argue it's even number one. Like. Oh yeah, yeah, I don't know. So the. As to like the history of the song Singing in the Rain, it first appeared in the Hollywood Review in 1929. In a much less iconic version, it basically just has a bunch of the stars lined up up in front of like a set that's supposed to look like Noah's Ark, all wearing their rain gear and they're just kind of standing there. Somebody named Cliff Edwards is singing. And some of the stars in the lineup include Joan Crawford, Marion Davies and Buster Keaton, who's just sitting there not smiling or singing, which is very Buster Keaton of him to do. You can see this on YouTube if you're interested. It is, it is kind of interesting just to look at it as a cultural artifact. [02:09:04] Speaker B: I mean, it's definitely. I think, yeah, people should see it, especially if they like this movie. [02:09:09] Speaker A: So as the, in terms of how the, the Singing in the Rain appeared in this film, originally Comden and Green had planned it as having all three leads participating in the number. But Gene Kelly, in what I think is his infinite wisdom in this case, thought it would work better as a solo number. I think he's completely right about that. [02:09:28] Speaker B: Oh yeah, definitely. [02:09:30] Speaker A: And Kelly also added the words Dancing in the Rain to the song to make it make more sense. Also a good move on Kelly's part in terms of how the visual look was created. There was a very large set for this number so Kelly could always be moving towards the camera and have it be very dynamic. And it was an outdoor set actually that tarps were put up over the top of to create a nighttime scene. And then rainwater was piped into the set. But they had to avoid shooting at certain times of day because the water levels would go lower as people were watering their lawns, which seems like a very LA thing. [02:10:07] Speaker B: I was just gonna say that. [02:10:11] Speaker A: So one final thing I want to say about this scene. So I've noticed covering LA based movies that a lot of times there will be scenes that are sort of dramatic in the movie that involve rainfall. Whether to like create sadness or just a dramatic moment of some sort. And it's always kind of like amused me because it's like it does not rain very much in Los Angeles. Like and I looked it up just to confirm it, but weather.com says downtown Los Angeles averages only 36 days a year with measurable rain. And yet you watch movies about Los Angeles, it's often raining in them. So. [02:10:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean that's. And a lot of noirs that are in la. It's like always dark and rainy too. [02:10:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:10:52] Speaker B: Like I know. It always gets me that they're wearing coats a lot too in la. And I'm like, oh true, it's not that cold. [02:11:01] Speaker A: But they get cold easier too though. That's the other thing. Like, so they'll be like 50 degrees. It's true. Meanwhile, Midwest, we're all like partying in the short in shorts. So. [02:11:13] Speaker B: Yeah, my brother lives in la. I remember being there and my sister in law being excited to put on the fire because it was like 50 degrees out. [02:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. But anyway, I've always found that amusing. So shout out to Los Angeles for. You're really aspiring to those rainy days. [02:11:31] Speaker B: Yes. [02:11:33] Speaker A: We now come to the part where they're kind of like. There's a little sequence of them making the dubbing for the. Changing the dueling cavalier into the dancing cavalier. And there's scenes of Debbie Reynolds dubbing over Jean Hagan over Lena Lamont. But ironically Debbie Reynolds singing in these scenes where she's like appearing to dub for Jean Hagen. She was actually being dubbed by a singer named Betty Noyes on the songs. You are my lucky star. And would you. So this is a scene where somebody. Somebody is being dubbed while portraying themselves doubling somebody else. Which is amazing. And what's even crazier is that in the scenes where she's doing Lena Lamont's dialogue, where she's appearing to dub Lena Lamont's dialogue, Gene Hagen is actually providing the voice for her own character there. So the character who appears to be being dubbed is actually the one dubbing for Debbie Reynolds. It's a whole thing. It's. [02:12:32] Speaker B: I also think it's really funny that yeah, they do use Betty Noyes voice to sing and then. But she's not credited. [02:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that sucks. It happened to so many of those people I think at that time. [02:12:45] Speaker B: But it's such a big point in this movie. You know, the idea that, that you would dub her singing and not credit her and how. What. How terrible that is. And then they were actually doing that. I don't know. [02:12:57] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, I can see that. Okay. Yep. Yeah. In terms of Betty Noyes, I looked into her a little bit. One of her other well known screen songs was baby mine in 1941's Dumbo, the song that Dumbo's mom sings to him. And she also appeared in a variety of musicals over the years and was only occasionally credited for. And one example of her credited work was in a 1965 TV movie of Cinderella. But, yeah, they're these, like, sort of unsung heroes of the musicals. All right. And now we come to a scene where we have a sort of a weird, like, imaginary dream sequence. They call these in musicals, dream ballets. Okay. Like, which is like an extended sequence, musical number that sort of takes place outside of the normal narrative of the movie. And there was a dream ballet in An American in Paris the. The previous year. So I guess, like, there was this feeling that they should have a dream ballet in Singing in the Rain. Originally, Donald o' Connor was slated to appear in the number with Kelly, but he had filming conflicts. I believe his filming conflict did involve Francis the Mule, and he was not super excited about that. Anyway, so the segment, the dream ballet, is introduced as Don is pitching the musical number to the head of the studio. And then within the musical number he's pitching, that we're seeing as an audience, there's a. An additional dream sequence within that sequence. So you're getting sort of Inception going on here. [02:14:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I know that when I was younger, I didn't actually like this part very much, but now I kind of love it, so. [02:14:36] Speaker A: Yeah, me neither. I don't think I've grown to love it, though. When I was a kid, this part kind of annoyed. Annoyed me. Like, I felt it was, like, too long and I was like. Also, like. I was like, who is this lady? Like, where's Kathy? Bring her back. Kathy. But how have you. Like, I. And I don't dislike it anymore because I can admire the technical aspects of it more, much more. But, like, how did you come to love it, do you think, yourself? [02:15:01] Speaker B: I don't know. I think I just. I really like the dancing. I like the style, the super stylized especially, you know, especially the. Not the dream within the dream, but the. Like the 1920s. Yeah, the 1920s set. [02:15:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And it kind of takes place, like you say, in several sections. So there's the Gotta Dance part at the beginning where we see Gene Kelly kind of in his Clark Kent Aspect like looking all nerdy. And he's a dancer who arrives on Broadway and he tries to get an agent. And then he meets. As he's doing performances, he meets a gangster's girlfriend. Then he finds success and he meets the gangster's girlfriend again from a place of success. And that's when it goes into this dream sequence with this like sort of expansive horizon. And the gangster's girlfriend is wearing this like really beautiful white dress and her hair is down and she looks like much more natural and there's a super long white scarf that's kind of trailing behind her. So like it takes place in different aspects. I actually. You say you don't really necessarily like the white veil scene. I actually like that better. Of the two parts, that's actually. [02:16:10] Speaker B: That's the part I really didn't like when I was younger because I thought it was boring. But now I. I like that. I do like that part the best, just because I think it's. It's really beautiful and I don't know, it is so different from the rest of the film, but. [02:16:25] Speaker A: Oh yeah. And we haven't mentioned yet. Syd Charisse is the actress who is dancing with Gene Kelly in this whole sequence. They ended up doing It's Always Fair Weather together later. She's appeared in a number of other musicals. This is one of her earlier star turns though, I believe in Hollywood. [02:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know, I like her a lot. I love her dancing with. Well, with both Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly. [02:16:54] Speaker A: Now, Gene Kelly had originally planned on using his dance assistant Carol Haney in the number number but unfortunately for her, producer Arthur Freed didn't think she had a glamorous enough look for the role. So Haney instead ended up being the one to help Sid Sharice rehearse for the role. Charisse said that she was very lovely about it, but like, man, that must have been fairly heartbreaking, I would think. [02:17:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:17:18] Speaker A: And Sid Sharice's look in the number, Sid Therese is made up to look quite different than herself. [02:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah, she was supposed. It's a tribute to silent actress Louise Brooks. I mean, it's. Which is kind of obvious when you see her there with her famous bob hairstyle. And again, like audiences at the time I think would have recognized that right away. [02:17:39] Speaker A: So something about Sid Sharice, she was taller than Gene Kelly. Gene Kelly was not a huge fan of appearing shorter than his co stars. And yeah, there's a whole thing about Esther Williams I found out about that. So Gene Kelly didn't want Sid Therese to appear taller than him. So he staged their dancing together where one of them was always, like, either leaning or bending so their height difference wouldn't be noticeable. But now that I watch the number, I'm totally like, oh, yeah, she is taller now. [02:18:07] Speaker B: I'm gonna look for that. [02:18:09] Speaker A: Seriously. [02:18:10] Speaker B: I could totally see that, too, because I know that Gene Kelly really wanted to be. Wanted to show how athletic and masculine dancing was. So I could see in just kind of a traditional 1950s way that he always wanted to be taller. [02:18:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [02:18:25] Speaker B: Maybe I'm reading too much into that. [02:18:26] Speaker A: But no, no, I think, like, from what I've read about Gene Kelly, I've read a couple biographies of him, and I would say that's probably accurate. And so there's the scene with the wind. And the fan was incredibly hard to film because to achieve the wind effect in the Veil Dance sequence, they used airplane motors. Cherise said, queen quote, I could hardly keep on my feet when the fans were turned way up and the enormous scarves tugged at me. I'd get home at night with my shoulders sore and aching from the pressure of the wind. And this is another thing you might. I don't even know if I should tell people this because they're going to be looking for it from now on if I tell them. But I found out that the fans also caused Shareese's costume to blow up too high. And white paint had to be applied in post production to hide, like, some pubic hair that showed up. So, like, there's, like, just a few points. And I looked afterwards, I couldn't help. But there was a few points where you can see that there was definitely a bit of white paint splashed onto the costume area. [02:19:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I will definitely be looking for that wardrobe malfunction. [02:19:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, and this was really interesting to me. So the minimalist set for the Veil Dance was inspired by the paintings of Salvador Dali. And when I look at it, I'm like, like, yeah, okay, I can totally see that. Like, instead of, like, some kind of, like, weird cobbled together, like, monster or, like, piece of furniture, it's Sid, Therese and Gene Kelly. [02:19:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's all you need. [02:19:55] Speaker A: And the Broadway Ballet in total clocked in at 12 minutes and 57 seconds. But the budget for that sequence was almost a quarter of the budget for the entire film. [02:20:05] Speaker B: That's so crazy. [02:20:08] Speaker A: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about? Like, there's a lot in this scene. So please, if you've got anything else you want to say. [02:20:15] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. I think we mentioned a little earlier just the. How the main gangster doesn't seem to be able to flip a coin. [02:20:25] Speaker A: Right. [02:20:27] Speaker B: I already mentioned it, so. [02:20:29] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And I guess I didn't talk about the hour outcome of the scene. So after they have their beautiful imaginary veil dance, like, Gene Kelly's character is brought back to reality and the gangster's girlfriend is still not interested in him, and she flips him a coin instead. And he's. Then he's kind of sad, but then he meets another young plucky dancer who says, gotta dance, and reminds him that he loves dancing. [02:20:57] Speaker B: I think it's also kind of crazy to think. Think what this would have been in the middle of the Dancing Cavalier. Like, it's just such a random. I'm like, I want to see this fight. You know, like, apparently he's, you know, falling down and dreaming of. [02:21:12] Speaker A: French Revolutionary times or something. [02:21:14] Speaker B: French Revolutionary times. And also this, like, weird, gay. I don't know. I mean, it's just so funny to think of this totally, you know, like, stylized dance number. And that. That's. That's the reality of the movie. And then he's falling down and dreaming the. Like, the actual main part of the movie. I don't know. [02:21:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And they're in the French Revolution and. Yeah, it's. [02:21:38] Speaker B: It's so different. [02:21:40] Speaker A: I don't know. It actually reminds me of this, like, really bad Fred McMurray movie that I watched where, like, it's in World War II, man. Now I can't even remember, like, where do we go from here? I think it's called. I think that's what it's called. I will check. But it's like he's in the 1940s, and then he gets the ability to time travel, to be in all these different eras. And it's really crazy and poorly done, but that's what it kind of reminds me of. We come to the end of this imagined musical number, and R.F. simpson says, I don't know, I'll have to see it on film. And apparently, like, that was a joke about Arthur Freed, who always said that. The same thing when they described him to him. The musical numbers they wanted to put together. So little inside joke on their part. Now we have a little plot point. Lena discovers that she's been dubbed and she threatens to sue. She threatens to sue if she's embarrassed by this. Like, but she says, like, sue, I can't quite do it. And she. [02:22:42] Speaker B: I love how she pronounces everything. [02:22:44] Speaker A: Yes. Then she threatens the head of the studio and says, I make more money than Calvin Coolidge put together. So she's. She's threatening she's gonna sue. She says she makes a ton of money for the studio and they need her. And then she goes behind the studio's back and has her publicist leak to the papers that she's a singing star ahead of the premiere. So this endangers Kathy's future. And I forgot to have a spoiler warning section, so I guess we're putting the spoiler warning section right here. It's going to be real late in the game on this one, so if you haven't seen Singing in the Rain. Yes. Go and watch it immediately and come back. So we now come to the premiere for the Dancing Cavalier. And I find it interesting. This is a movie that is bookended by film premieres. And by the end of the film, the transition to sound is complete. [02:23:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I hadn't thought about that. But it does make a nice, nice package. [02:23:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good structure. [02:23:44] Speaker B: It's a very good structure. [02:23:45] Speaker A: And we get to see then the varying reactions. And there's also a film premiere in the middle, too. So we get to see three different sets of reactions to film premieres throughout this movie. And we find out the movie is a huge success. We see a clip of it where Lena is appearing to saying, would you. At the end of the film. Which, of course, Kathy is singing in the story, but Betty Noyes is actually dubbed for Debbie Reynolds. [02:24:13] Speaker B: There's also, Yeah, I guess an inception of dubbing. [02:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Christopher Nolan. You weren't that ahead of the time? Sorry, no, Lena. Backstage. Lena demands that Kathy keep dubbing for her. And she goes out to make a speech thanking the audience. And the audience is, like, super confused that Lena does not sound anything like she did on screen. [02:24:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Which, I mean, you would be. Although, I guess you could kind of. There's sometimes that I hear singers who I like speak, and I'm like, oh, man, that's their talking voice. [02:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, this is like, her talking voices are totally different. And, like, she thinks the audience. Like, she's never gotten to make a speech before because I always kept her away from the audience. And she's, like, thanking them so sincerely. And she says, like, something like, it warms our hearts that our hard work ain't been in vain for nothing. I really. I needed to practice my Lena voice better. I didn't really get it quite right. So Lena's threatening to, like, never let Kathy be a star. R.F. simpson's looking like he's a little bit confused about the whole thing. Kathy's very agitated because she thinks that they're gonna make her keep singing for Lena. But they come up with a plan where Lena is going to lip sync to Kathy singing backstage, but they're secretly going to reveal that Kathy's the real singer by opening the curtain. And this is how Lena's plot is undone and her, you know, being dubbed is revealed. What do you think about this sequence? She's singing, by the way. Singing in the rain in this section. [02:25:49] Speaker B: I don't know. I mean, I like this sequence. Like, I mean, it's one of those. Like Lena, I guess, is kind of the villain of the movie, but she's not. I mean, I guess she is villainous, but she's, you know, no one really hates her. So I think it's. It's kind of good that they. They kind of take their conflict and wrap it up really quick. I always think of. I love when they're pulling the. The rope up in time while. While singing. [02:26:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cute. Yeah. The men backstage are pulling up the rope. And then we reveal Kathy behind the stage singing for Lena. And then Donald o' Connor shoves Kathy out of the way and he sings part of it. And Lena's still singing there. Bless her. Sitting there. Bless her heart. Like lip syncing to Cosmo for a minute. Well, not for a minute. Just for a few seconds. And then both ladies are quite distressed and run off. But Don gets the microphone and tells the audience to stop Kathy because she's the real singer and the real star of the show. And she then begins to sing to her. He begins to sing, you are my lucky star. And Debbie Reynolds has to cry in this scene. And apparently she had trouble crying. She said, quote, nothing sad had ever happened to me. My dog hadn't even died, so they had to put onions on my cheek to make tears come out. Can you imagine? Nothing sad ever happened to you? My God, no. [02:27:12] Speaker B: I mean, I guess she was pretty young, but. [02:27:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. [02:27:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:27:17] Speaker A: Anyway, sad things happened to her subsequently, though, so I guess, like, she had her. She ended up dealing with a lot of trials in her life. But, yeah, then Don and Kathy sing to each other and you are my lucky star. And they kiss. And then we see them in front of a billboard for their own movie together, which is called Singing in the. [02:27:39] Speaker B: Rain, which is just kind of a nice meta end. [02:27:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:27:46] Speaker B: I do wonder what their version of Singing in the Rain would be. [02:27:49] Speaker A: This is true. Yeah. There's a couple different movies. Like, we. We really got cheated out of here. Like, we want to see the Dancing Cavalier, this whole, like, Dreaming Year in the French Revolution business. Yes. The Royal Rascal. I mean, come on. Yeah. [02:28:05] Speaker B: And I want to see. Yes. Either version of Singing in the Rain at the end. [02:28:08] Speaker A: And, yeah. I would see any number of fake movies that are suggested by this film. So, yes, one thing I did want to note about this movie that I find interesting is this is a movie that's dealing with the transition from silent to sound film. While Singing in the Rain comes in sort of near the end of the studio system, which. The end of the studio system was going to end up affecting Hollywood, you know, also. And, like, also the advent of TV and everybody's House, Everybody's homes was going to fundamentally change the film industry. So it's interesting Singing in the Rain is talking about a change point in Hollywood history, but itself was part of a change point in Hollywood history. [02:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. Yeah. And it's funny because I know that change to sound was also. Theaters were seeing their audiences go down because radio had come in. [02:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:29:02] Speaker B: And people are like, well, why go to a theater if I can sit at home and listen? [02:29:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:29:06] Speaker B: And I guess at this time they're like, oh, I can stay at home and watch television. [02:29:10] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, we're also enduring different changes right now. So. Yeah. With streaming, and they've managed to hold AI at bay for now, thank goodness. But. Yeah. [02:29:24] Speaker B: Oh, God. Just. [02:29:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:29:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, in. I will say working in an archive, AI is just. Yeah. I'm not looking forward to it, especially working with documentaries and archival producers. And I do know that there is. There is a big push in Hollywood by archival producers to try to get some standards set in place so that. That people can't just, you know, like, AI footage of Abraham Lincoln, like, tap dancing or something, and pretend that it's real. [02:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be bad. That would be real bad, Liz. [02:30:01] Speaker B: They would do that, I think, if they could. So. But that's beside the point. [02:30:06] Speaker A: No, I mean, no. To, like, it's very relevant. Like, this movie is about changes in it in the film industry. And, yeah, maybe the transition to sound was positive, but not every. But I mean, it had negatives, too, and not every change to an industry is going to be positive. So we have to think very carefully about what are the effects that might come to be. [02:30:27] Speaker B: Yeah. I do know that the last conference I went to, archivist conference, almost the theme almost became AI. We were talking a lot about AI and how it was getting ready to disrupt kind of everything. [02:30:40] Speaker A: So, yeah, I am. I am. Just for the record, as a host of this podcast, I do not use AI. The only thing I think that uses AI is the site that I host with provides AI transcriptions. The only reason I allow that is because I can't afford the time or money it would take to provide transcriptions otherwise. And I've decided that for accessibility's sake, it's better to have some transcriptions than no transcriptions. But no AI is used in researching the show, in preparing notes for this show, in any other aspect of this show. Just want my listeners to know. All right, well, with that sad, sad notes, we won't end on that sad note because we still have our double feature recommendations. So we're going to recommend you some movies that would be fun to watch with Singing in the Rain, and I guess we can do one by one. So my first double feature recommendation is going to be the pirate from 1948, which stars Gene Kelly and Judy Garland and is directed by Vincent Minelli. And there's a couple reasons I'm recommending the pirate number. One, of course, is for the Be a Clown song, which was such a very direct inspiration on the song Make Em Laugh. That number in the movie is also worth checking out. It's. It's performed twice. I prefer the one where Gene Kelly performs it with the Nicholas Brothers, though, who are a pair of black brothers who were really great dancers and kind of acrobats too, I think. And Gene Kelly performs a dance with them that is just wonderful and really worth seeing. I like the movie as a whole because it's like super over the top and stylized. Like Gene Kelly is playing an actor who for a while pretends to be a pirate and in order to kind of seduce Judy Garland's character. It is a very campy film. It is very over the top. It is not for everybody. But if you like kind of smarmy mode, Gene Kelly, you will like it. If you like bright costumes, you will like it. And there's some, you know, great dance numbers in here. The highlight of the whole film for me, though is like this moment where Gene Kelly's like seduces this woman by taking the cigarette out of her mouth, smoking it, and then like swallowing it briefly to kiss her and then spitting it back out again. Like, what is going on here? It is amazing. So. And I take it you like this movie too, I think, right, Karen? [02:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's one of those. I randomly saw it on TCM One night, like, my mom and I got sucked in. And it's really campy, but it's really fun. So my first recommendation is the Unsinkable Molly Brown from 1964, which stars Debbie Reynolds. Reynolds, which. I'm recommending this because it stars Debbie Reynolds and it's one of the. I saw this movie a long time ago, back when, like, AMC used to play movies all the time. And I just. I just loved it. It's just really fun. She is playing a real character, Molly Brown, who is also in the movie Titanic, because she was on the Titanic and survived it, which is why it's the Unsinkable Molly Brown. Yeah. And it's just really fun. There's a lot of really good musical numbers. [02:34:04] Speaker A: And she was nominated for an Oscar for this role. So, like, if you want to see another Debbie Reynolds role, this is probably the one to go with, I would say. [02:34:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And she's just. I mean, the character herself is great. You know, she's just a spunky woman. She's played by Kathy Bates in the Titanic movie with the James Cameron one. [02:34:25] Speaker A: Yeah. The Titanic section of this movie is not the most impressive part, for sure. [02:34:29] Speaker B: No, it's very, like. [02:34:31] Speaker A: It's very glide. It glossed over, but, like, there's. Yeah, I watched it for this episode and there were some really fun bits in it. You're right. Yeah. All right. My second double feature recommendation is on the town from 1949. Earlier in the episode, I kind of made clear why this would be a double feature recommendation. But. But I'll reiterate, it is directed by Gene Kelly and Stanley Donen, who also directed this film. It is written by Adolf Green and Betty Comden, who also wrote this film, and it is starring Gene Kelly, who also starred in this film. So it's. It's. You've got a lot of the usual suspects are back together on this one or are together for the first time on this one. And I really love on the Town. Like, I don't think it's, like, as much a perfect film as Singing in the Rain, but I probably actually watched this one more when I was a kid. I think, like, I like the idea there's like, three different couples that you're following in on the Town instead of just like a main couple. And Frank Sinatra is in the movie as well. And I. I did my, like, child self had a little crush on the Frank Sinatra character in this movie. I always wanted to be like the lady cab driver character. It's basically sailors arriving in New York and Falling in Love. And it had what was, at the time considered a kind of. At the time considered almost like kind of a groundbreaking location montage that starts the beginning of the musical. There weren't a lot of musicals with, like, location scene shots at that time. So really, a lot of great reasons to see this movie and some fantastic dancing. Vera Ellen is Gene Kelly's partner in this, and she is a, you know, one of the most famous dancers in music musicals. So, yeah, check out on the Town if you haven't. [02:36:10] Speaker B: Definitely. That's another one I really like. So my second recommendation is the bandwagon from 1953. So this is a good example of a kind of contemporary musical to Singing in the Rain. It came out one year later. It's also written by Comden and Greene and produced by Freed. Except for this one stars Fred Astaire instead of Gene Kelly and it's directed by Vince Minnelli. And I also think that this one goes pretty well with Singing in the Rain because it's about a. Fred Astaire is a film actor who. His career is kind of waning, and so he goes back to New York to make a play to try to break out on Broadway. [02:36:58] Speaker A: Nice. I haven't seen this one, so. [02:37:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's Fred Astaire and Sid Cerise, and you should definitely watch it. It is really great. [02:37:07] Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent. All right. And we both have kind of more modern picks for our third pick. Mine is the artist from 2011. And I'd kind of forgotten that the Artist had won, like, the Oscar for Best Picture and a number of other Oscars. I was in Korea when that happened, so that's probably why I missed. I forgot about it. But the Artist is a modern silent film, and it's a modern silent film also about the transition from silent to sound film. And an actor who is having a very difficult time making that transition and is being left behind, really. But he has sort of helped out a young actress who has risen to popularity with the advent of sound film. And the actor has this really, really cute dog that follows him everywhere in the movie. And the dog is actually kind of half the reason I like this movie, even though I'm not like, a huge dog person. But it's just a very charming dog. And, yeah, you've got some people showing up in the movie as well who are pretty famous, like John Goodman in a small role. Jean Dujardin is the lead male, and then Berenice Bujo is the lead female actress in the movie. They do a Great job as well. And I think it does a great job showing the strengths of silence silent films, like the ways that you can emote differently and portray different emotions with silent film as opposed to sound film. So, yeah, it's great to see a film succeed in the 21st century, too. [02:38:34] Speaker B: I do love that movie, and the dog is a big part of it. There's also a pretty great nitrate fire in it that takes way too long for the film to catch. So for my third choice, I was kind of back and forth on which Damien Chazelle movie to do for my final recommendation, but I went with Babylon from 2022. Ultimately, I don't know if it was my favorite movie, but it is very, very relatable to Singing in the Rain. The director, Damien Giselle, loves Singing in the Rain. It's one of his favorite movies. And you can really see the comparisons between Babylon. In Babylon, you have Margot Robbie plays a character who is very kind of close to Lena Lamont. And you have Brad Pitt playing a Gene Kelly. And they. Even at the end of the film, they do the, you know, kind of remake, the original Singing in the rave from 1929, where they have all the actors. Actors, you know, standing and singing on camera. And the film itself also concerns the. The transition from silent to sound. And there's actually one scene that I really love is when Margot Robbie has to come out for her first sound picture and she needs to hit her correct mic spot. And it's very relatable to. To the Lena Lamont having to talk into the bush scene. You know, she has to keep on hitting her mark, hitting her mark. And I don't know, I. I thought about this movie a lot when I was kind of, you know, reading up and preparing for this podcast. And I do think that it is a. It is also kind of, you know, it is an ode to silent film in the transition. But it's a much more cynical view of this period where Singing in the Rain is. Even though it was kind of a sad time for people because they were losing their jobs, you know, Singing in the Rain gives it a very kind of upbeat transition. Whereas Babylon, I don't know, it is a lot more cynical, which is maybe why I don't like it as much, but. But I do think it is. It's a very good companion. [02:40:51] Speaker A: So I do want to rewatch it. Like, I was going to rewatch it for the podcast, but when you chose it as a double feature, I'm like, well, I'm just gonna watch some other things. Instead to be, you know, so we're totally rounded over here. But yeah, I remember watching it and being like, oh yes, the Singing in the Rain handprints are all over that movie. [02:41:08] Speaker B: So yeah, I mean he even really like at the end, he really kind of throws it in your face, in case you didn't realize that, that this movie was supposed to be. And I mean, there is a lot like, you know, the Hollywood Party and Singing in the Rain, which is just kind of fun with them jumping out of cakes and throwing candy. And then they have the Hollywood party in Babylon, which is much more X rated. [02:41:28] Speaker A: I remember there being vomit in Babylon too. Like more vomit than I wanted in a movie. [02:41:33] Speaker B: But yeah, there's like a lot I don't know and there's this whole weird like asshole of LA section that I don't, I don't know. I think maybe I'd like the movie better without that weird side plot, but. [02:41:46] Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, there you go. But we Babylon, it's sort of mixed recommendation, but at the same time, if you're trying to do a double feature that's thematic, I think, yes, it is a great pick. So. [02:41:56] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, I do think it does go really well with Singing in the Rain. [02:42:00] Speaker A: All right, well, Karen, thank you so much for finally getting to be on the podcast here. I'm so glad we, we finally got you. You had some spare time to come and talk with us. And I will be. We will include links to the Northeast historic film where you can take a look at what Karen and her co workers are doing to help the world and maybe contribute if you are able. And yeah, coming up on every rom com, we'll be covering 500 days of summer to close out our LA stories series. And then we will be moving on to a summer of sports rom comms. So keep an eye out for that. Thank you for listening everybody. Goodbye. [02:42:36] Speaker B: Goodbye.